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racism, policy in atiquity
#1
Found this interesting.<br>
As it concerns what greek and ROMAN thought about enemies it has something to say about military policy<br>
<br>
pup.princeton.edu/chapters/i7737.html <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=goffredo>goffredo</A> at: 3/17/04 3:25 pm<br></i>
Jeffery Wyss
"Si vos es non secui of solutio tunc vos es secui of preciptate."
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#2
Wow, I was going to read that, then I saw how long it was...lol. Did you read it goffredo? Feel like summing it up? <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>
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#3
I'd have to read it, but I find it hard to believe that the concept of 'racism' is solely Western, and disappeared (if I'm reading it correctly) between the fall of Rome and the 19th century? There wasn't any in the medieval times? Nor in Japan ? <p>Legio XX<br>
Fortius Conamur<br>
<br>
</p><i></i>
Richard Campbell
Legio XX - Alexandria, Virginia
RAT member #6?
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#4
Having forced my way through this rather dense article, I have to say that I'm not terribly convinced. Then again, it's hard to say anything definite about it, as the extract is merely the introduction to a far longer piece, and actually features very little of substance. The author, Mr Isaacs, spends more than half the article debating terms - he doesn't believe that 'race' exists (fair enough), but then goes through all sorts of hoops trying to define what, therefore, 'racism' might mean. After some rather wearying and apologetic hand-wringing, he manages to define racism as the belief that alien groups of people possess immutable physical or mental characteristics which render them inferior. Ok, fair enough again - but he then states that he intends to demonstrate the existence of this belief in 'ancient times' - whether he manages this feat or not the article does not go on to elucidate - beyond a cursory note from Tacitus and a vague bit about Aristotle, Isaac's findings remain inscrutable.<br>
<br>
However, by the very definition of his terms his argument seems to fail - like a man trying to pitch his tent on quicksand, just when he gets his thesis to stand up straight, it sinks. It cannot be doubted, after all, that the Romans (in common with most other people throughout history) were fairly xenophobic at times (a later term, as Isaac points out, but it'll do) - Roman literature is scathing about the effeminacy of Egyptians, the fanaticism of Jews and the savage irrationality of Germans (etc etc). But is this racism, by Isaac's interpretation?<br>
To the Romans, what was important was citizenship and belonging - neither based on ethnicity. Their stereotypes of outsiders were intended to reinforce their own virtues - Egyptian effeminacy V Roman masculinity, Germanic savagery V Roman restraint and rationalism, and so on. In other words, it was the behaviour of the outsider, and what that behaviour represented, that was the problem. As we know, it was perfectly possible for a German, a Syrian, a Jew or even an Egyptian to become a Roman citizen, thereby neutralising their otherness - this is hardly the belief in immutable and genetic inferiority that Isaacs describes as 'racism'. Added to this, the possibility of any slave in Roman society to be freed, and his or her offspring to be considered as full citizens, mitigates against a Roman (or 'ancient') belief in the inherent servility of certain groups or 'races' (this appears to be another of Isaacs' points)<br>
<br>
The extract mentions Balsdon's 'Romans and Aliens', which is a very good book on this theme, but Isaacs seems a bit sniffy about its lack of discussion and ethical finger-pointing. So what? Balsdon presumably saw the difficulties in judging ancient cultures by modern standards, and chose not to go there.<br>
<br>
(p.s - shouldn't this thread go into 'References & Reviews?) <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=nathanross@romanarmytalk>Nathan Ross</A> at: 3/17/04 10:33 pm<br></i>
Nathan Ross
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#5
Well done Nathan. I can't stand when author's are too wordy and are incapable of making their point in less than 1000 words.<br>
<br>
Thanks for the summary! <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>
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#6
If you manage to make your point in fewer than 1,000 words, Magnus/Matt, it must be a pretty simple point! <p></p><i></i>
** Vincula/Lucy **
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#7
Seems to be a good summary to me. I read all the way to the hand wringing part. That's where I quit.<br>
I tend to think that the ancient Greeks and Romans being the founding fathers of our present western civilisation, we look pretty much like them and them like us.<br>
Now I don't know whether they had the same concept of racism as we have and it is certain that no one then even considered making racism an official policy like the nazis did.<br>
However there are those tablets at Vindolanda showing that the Romans looked down with contempt at the "Britonniculi", the "puny Britons"...<br>
In the Late Empire there was a very strong reaction against the Goths and they were expelled from Constantinople. In the latter, although race was invoked it looks more like a reaction to what was considered an invasion, mixed with a political crisis.<br>
Methink that the concept of racism goes along with the concept we have of what is a human being.<br>
Since they had a totally different concept of what is a human being, they had a different concept of races.<br>
But there was racism, maybe a more natural, non ideological form of it, but racism nevertheless.<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 3/19/04 1:32 am<br></i>
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#8
The concept of racism in some way, shape, or form has been a part of our existence ever since we humans started the 'we versus them' mentality. When being part of something great ( as the Romans might have thought how great their ancestry/civilisation was ) then we tend to belittle other countries, civilisations, groups, and whatnot. So I wouldn't see anything unatural for the Romans, in this case, to view Greeks as 'barbarians', Germans as 'savages', Britons as 'brittunculi', so on and so forth. I mean when we belong to something we want to proclaim to the world how great we are ( as can be attested from some of the Roman writers throughout the Roman era ). Unfortunately this also takes a more sinister attribute like: conquering other countries, demanding tribute, enslaving whole populations...etc.<br>
<br>
But to me it's just part of the natural order of things. <br>
[ I apologize if I strayed a bit, but I found this thread interesting and had to put my two cents in. ] <p></p><i></i>
aka: Julio Peña
Quote:"audaces Fortuna iuvat"
- shouted by Turnus in Virgil\'s Aeneid in book X just before he is utterly destroyed by Aeneas\' Trojans.
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