Pausanias on Achaean armament, ca. 200 BCE

[Aryaman2]

I think you are inapropriately applying a modern, at least 18th century, definitions, where the two are similarly armed and differ only in deployment.

This is true, but it had been true for a long time and we wouldn't consider a hoplite light infantry even if he was forced to run out and skirmish.

This is interesting if you can source it. Usually Light troops in this period are inferiors- eg. Psiloi, velites, etc., or Xenos and Mishophoroi or allies like the cretans, and Thracians.

1) No, it was since the 16th century, I was having that in mind because the parallel between the phalanx and the pike formations of that period. A Spanish Tercio had at least 2 arquebussiers companies attached. Arquebussiers served as skirmishers, advancing far ahead of the escuadrón (Pike block) in loose order, while doing that they were supported by halberdiers advancing in open order, ready to close with enemy skirmishers or to form a defensive circle in which friendly arquebussiers took refuge from enemy cavalry. Halberdiers also led storming parties (they wore heavy bullet proof brestplates in such occasions). If required, they could exchange the halberd by a pike and join the escuadrón. They received a higher pay not only than verage Pikemen, but also than heavy armoured Pikemen (those in the first rank). References are in spanish, sorry.
Julio Albi de La Cuesta De Pavía a Rocroi, Los Tercios de infantería española, Balkan editores, Madrid 1999.
René Quatrefages La Revolución Militar Moderna, El Crisol Español, Ministerio de Defensa, Madrid 1996

2) Because an hoplite wasn´t trained as light infantry, it is not the same to perform it as an expedient or to be trained to do it. But remember that the hoplites selected for doing it were picked men, not just anyone.

3) Here you make a mistake, in your use f the expression "light troops" you mix up two different troops, Psiloi, Mysthophoroi, Euzonoi...they are all skirmishers, not Light Infantry. OTOH Velites are Light Infantry, and elite troops, They were Young men of exceptional speed and agility were selected from all the legions (Livy XXVI.4)

they engaged in close combat with skirmishers, beating them
Under these conditions Philip's cavalry, unaccustomed to a stationary combat, were no match for the Roman horse, and his infantry, trained to skirmish in loose order and unprotected by armour, were at the mercy of the velites who with their swords and shields were equally prepared for defence and attack (Livy XXXI, 35)

They could even beat "heavy infantry" like that of the Galatians

...those (Galatians) who got to close quarters the velites slew with their swords. These soldiers carry a shield three feet long, javelins in their right hand for use at a distance and a Spanish sword in their belts. When they have to fight at close quarters they transfer the javelins to their left hands and draw their swords (Livy XXXVIII, 21)

[PMBardunias]

Because an hoplite wasn´t trained as light infantry, it is not the same to perform it as an expedient or to be trained to do it. But remember that the hoplites selected for doing it were picked men, not just anyone.

At least for Spartans "picked" because they were young and fast, not elite or the recipients of higher status. My point is that they are heavy infantry acting as skirmishers, we would not consider these men skirmishers who later act as heavy infantry even if they skirkished more often.

3) Here you make a mistake, in your use f the expression "light troops" you mix up two different troops, Psiloi, Mysthophoroi, Euzonoi...they are all skirmishers, not Light Infantry.

As I see it the heavy/light/skirmisher distinction is artificial. We could throw in medium infantry and all the other classes that gamers use for game mechanics that would have been meaningless in the ancient world. Functionally there is only fighting as line infantry and skirmishing. If there are some skirmishers who can stand up to certain line troops then this is akin to the hoplite outrunners who can under some circumstances act as skirmishers.

Clarify for me what "fighting in opened order" means. If halbediers need more room to swing their weapons and space accordingly is this opened? Does that make romans opened order fighters in the eyes of hoplites and sarissaphoroi? Is it because they move in mobs instead of lines?

OTOH Velites are Light Infantry, and elite troops, They were Young men of exceptional speed and agility were selected from all the legions (Livy XXVI.4)

Were they paid more than Princeps or Triarii? I may be wrong, I have been before and will be again, but it is my understanding that Velites came from the men of lower class.

[Aryaman2]

No, the distinction is clear, there is line infantry, light infantry and skirmishers.
Skirmishers are missile troops, they fight at distance and are not trained and/ or equipped to engaged in close combat. In ancient times they were either of lower classes or mercenaries, usually foreigners.
Light Infantry has many other roles, as I have explained already, among them they support skirmishers (that is why Polybius mentions so many times "Peltastes and Euzonoi" acting detached in advance of the main force), and they are picked men, either as a consolidated unit (when they receive specific training ) or as selected members of line infantry. They have to be agile in body and mind.
Open order is a formation that allowed fast, fluid movement of the formation, yet keep enough order so that it could be redeployed in a closer one to face enemy in close combat, for example the Peltasts crossing a river as a vanguard and the closing ranks to repel a cavalry attack.

[PMBardunias]

Light Infantry has many other roles, as I have explained already, among them they support skirmishers (that is why Polybius mentions so many times "Peltastes and Euzonoi" acting detached in advance of the main force), and they are picked men, either as a consolidated unit (when they receive specific training ) or as selected members of line infantry.

This is why I think the term artificial. What you are describing is simply line infantry trained to support skirmishers. They can either fight as skirmishers, by throwing things or engaging in a disorganized squabble, or clash while spontaneously forming a battleline.

Open order is a formation that allowed fast, fluid movement of the formation, yet keep enough order so that it could be redeployed in a closer one to face enemy in close combat, for example the Peltasts crossing a river as a vanguard and the closing ranks to repel a cavalry attack.

When in early modern armies, all infantry were skirmishers who fought with missile weapons, open and close is a valid distinction- they only become battleline infantry in the ancient sense when they charge with bayonettes. In the period we speak of there is no opened order battle. It refers simply, as you note above, to the formation you move in. No matter how you get there you must form a battleline to fight a battleline or skirmish against skirmishers.

Mobility is limited by two things, arms and training. Thus well trained hoplites could race to the tops of hills while musket armed French conscripts were packed in columns to advance. The "light" term cannot be consistantly applied because it is relative. To a late sarissaphoroi all thureophoroi and romans would fit your definition since they could be more mobile and throw things if need be.

Many troop types have the ability to do both in some capacity. What you are describing as "light" is simply line infantry trained to a dual-role function.

[Aryaman2]

No, It is not "regular line infantry", as I said they had an specific training, status and higher pay.
In ancient times the distinction was also clear, line infantry laboriously wheeled to deploy in battleline, then advanced slowly or risked to break the formation, open order allows faster movement over rough terrain, yet it helds a grade of cohesion, to perform that it was required an specific training. Then it is not just that "They can either fight as skirmishers, by throwing things or engaging in a disorganized squabble, or clash while spontaneously forming a battleline" their missile capability is irrelevant to categorize light infantry, while their ability to from a proper battleline, not "spontaneously" but under orders, is the relevant one.


"Mobility is limited by two things, arms and training" you say, and I completely disagree, mobility is limited by one thing overall, formation. In close formation you have to move slowly or risk breaking it, especially over rough terrain or while wheeling (besides that, the other main factor is frontage).
Everyone can fight to some degree in every way, yet the same way you would say that an hoplite is not an skirmisher just because he was able to throw a javelin, however well he did it, because the role of his unit in the army was as line infantry, light infantry has his own role even if it could be used as line infantry.

[PMBardunias]

No, It is not "regular line infantry", as I said they had an specific training, status and higher pay.

Which is what I said: a species of line infantry trained to support skirmishers. This may come with elite status and higher pay.

In ancient times the distinction was also clear, line infantry laboriously wheeled to deploy in battleline, then advanced slowly or risked to break the formation, open order allows faster movement over rough terrain, yet it helds a grade of cohesion, to perform that it was required an specific training.

There was no slow advance at marathon. The difference you are describing is simply whether they deploy and advance in line or advance and form line. This is a matter of training. You cannot fight a line without becoming a line.

mobility is limited by one thing overall, formation. In close formation you have to move slowly or risk breaking it, especially over rough terrain or while wheeling (besides that, the other main factor is frontage).

The ability to move quickly in formation is the training I spoke of. Close formation can move quite quick in column, while an opened order line will fracture if not well trained.

Everyone can fight to some degree in every way, yet the same way you would say that an hoplite is not an skirmisher just because he was able to throw a javelin, however well he did it, because the role of his unit in the army was as line infantry, light infantry has his own role even if it could be used as line infantry.

As I said, there are only two possible roles in ancient combat- fighting in a battleline or skirmishing. Thus your lights are either line infantry skirmishing or skirmishers in line. If you open the pandora's box of troop types you end up with Mediums etc. that are irrelevant.

[Sean Manning]

When in early modern armies, all infantry were skirmishers who fought with missile weapons, open and close is a valid distinction- they only become battleline infantry in the ancient sense when they charge with bayonettes. In the period we speak of there is no opened order battle. It refers simply, as you note above, to the formation you move in. No matter how you get there you must form a battleline to fight a battleline or skirmish against skirmishers.

<quibble>That seems a restrictive definition of "battle line infantry." After all, Assyrian and Persian armies had line troops who fought mainly with bows. </quibble> I suspect that your line troops/light troops distinction is the best simple one, bearing in mind that many troops can fight both ways depending on circumstance and that differences in armament (eg. open-order spearmen vs. skirmishing bowmen) can make a big difference. But I try not to get too worked up arguing definitions ...

[PMBardunias]

That seems a restrictive definition of "battle line infantry." After all, Assyrian and Persian armies had line troops who fought mainly with bows.

I completely agree. I deally we should toss out the whole idea of pigeon-holing types and simply define by function. There are only two ways a human can kill another in this period: face to face or at range. Many troop types can fight with various changes in degree of effectiveness as both.

In truth, there are only men with weapons and training. Thus the Persians above are a line of missile troops until such time as they make contact with an enemy line, then fight hand to hand or run away.

It is a continuum for many troops who have both ranged and close-fighting capability, and the only true distiction can be at the extremes, say slingers vs 5th century hoplites, where one would never be expected to stand and fight close and the other has nothing to throw.

Most of the percieved difference in between comes from how they are trained and to which end of the spectrum they are intended to maximize performance. As I pointed out, even hoplites can be trained to race up hills and run and close with missile troops, who in order to fulfill their primary mission of throwing things and running away sacrifice weight of arms. What was being referred to as "light" troops above seems to be simply specially trained men who support others whose primary mission is throwing things, but at the end of the day they either throw things themselves and/or attack in close, the rest is irrelevant for designation since things like armor and weapons are so subjective.

I think any level of grouping between this and a reduction to the exact armor/weapons/training of individual units only clouds the true picture. The mid-level grouping is essential for war-game balance though, so it will never go away.

[hoplite14gr]

The "ephevos" of the classiacal era and probaly of the hellenistic had javelin throwing in gis GYMNASIO curriculum.

So the "close order" troops had the skills of the "open order" troops before joining the ranks.

Kind regards

[Aryaman2]

Which is what I said: a species of line infantry trained to support skirmishers. This may come with elite status and higher pay..

You can call it line infantry instead of light infantry, but they have different training and in armies well developed they are formed in their own separated units, so I think there is justification to call them by other name

As I said, there are only two possible roles in ancient combat- fighting in a battleline or skirmishing. Thus your lights are either line infantry skirmishing or skirmishers in line. If you open the pandora's box of troop types you end up with Mediums etc. that are irrelevant.

There is an important transition from one to another, in war pitched battles are rare while minor actions that never fully develope into battlelines clashing plenty.

[Aryaman2]

The main reason why I think we should distinguish is because they were indeed distinguished in their own armies, they were considered elite units and different from line infantry, the difference is not trivial, is functional. Light Infantry were formed in their own units to be trainded specifically and because their role was performed normally away from line infantry.