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Montefortino.....
#16
Talking of "Celtic" in this context is quite difficult IMO. It´s easy to talk of Gauls, or Britons and so on. The term "Celtic" lets one always think that this was a coherent group of people sharing genes and culture, which was not the case. They shared mainly culture, but not all aspects of it (like language, e.g.) everywhere to the same extent.
As these cultures, IMO better named by their tribal names, had no standing armies as e.g. the Romans had, most soldiers equipped themselves, and thus the majority probably didn´t have a helmet or even a sword. In this they were probably similar to the Vikings, where the on-site-long-term archaeology has shown, that armour and certain weapons were rather rare, and only for the well-to-do

Viking settlement of Haithabu brought forth for the years 793-1066
with an estimated continuous population of 1500 inhabitants only 40 swords. So how many people would have had a sword simultaneously? Same for helmets (for the whole of Viking culture only one helmet was found in a grave (Gjermundu) so far(!)) and chain mail.
People in the mediterranean at the time the helmet above was made may have been a bit richer, but nonetheless, we can guess that helmets were expensive to start with. Since working time of craftsmen wasn´t necessarily so expensive for various reasons (e.g. slave culture), it is not so astonishing that most helmets we have from this period are extremely well made and decorated.
I´d say that rather the very simple and "cheap" pieces are an exception.

Look at Dan´s great sites:


www.sas.upenn.edu/%7Edpd/italica/armor/c-panoplies.html
www.sas.upenn.edu/~dpd/italica/armor/panoplies.html[/img]
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#17
But, we talk about helmets and there elaborate design, and not about Vikings? For the most peoples it is easier to understand if you say ´celtic´ and not Brigantes, Britones or the names from the other countless tribes. And the celts have a long tradition in manufacture helmets, both of iron and brass. And the types of roman helmets that are most used during the republic and early and middle Empire are all celtic, Montefortino, Coolus and Imperial-GALLIC!!!!!
Marcus Iulius Chattus
_______________________
Marcus-Gerd Hock

Me that ave been what i´ve been-
Me that ave gone where i´ve gone-
Me that ave seen what i´ve seen-
...Me!
(Rudyard Kipling)
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#18
I would have to go with Marcus, it is clearer to most people to use the term Celtic or even Gaulic.....
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#19
Quote:maybe a stupid question... but...
this is looking as very fine, luxurious helmet. Is there any "normal soldier" monterfortinos made form iron or they were all from brass/bronze?
there is a reference to legionaries switching to iron helmets and then switching back to bronze at a later time. A montefortino was also posted recently that appears to have an iron bowl and bronze cheek pieces.
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 206#178206
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#20
That is one I hope to have a reconstruction loosely based on...minus the piece around filial. Unless there are other pictures of it from other angles it is hard to make out its construction.
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#21
Jim, the helmet is all bronze, just different alloys.
Quote:But, we talk about helmets and there elaborate design, and not about Vikings? For the most peoples it is easier to understand if you say ´celtic´ and not Brigantes, Britones or the names from the other countless tribes. And the celts have a long tradition in manufacture helmets, both of iron and brass. And the types of roman helmets that are most used during the republic and early and middle Empire are all celtic, Montefortino, Coolus and Imperial-GALLIC!!!!!


One ! is enough, no reason to start shouting on this board.

You seem not to have understood my argument.
I said that the general situation of these societies is comparable to that of the Vikings, where we have clearer evidence, thus we can make careful comparisons about the "Celtic" tribes and the Vikings. They must´nt be necessarily super-valid, but in this case one can make a point. If you look at the grave inventories I posted above, it becomes clear, that these objects are rather for the well-to-do. That would be an other valid approach to this question. IMO the majority of combattants couldn´t afford a helmet.

Most archaeologists and historians nowadays don´t use the term "Celtic" or "Celts" any longer, as the more one investigates the individual tribes, the more differences can be seen. Especially for the Italic "celts" this point can be made, as they are culturally much more difficult to distinguish from the Romans / Etruscans, as e.g. the Treveri.

Byron, you´ll get it, don´t be impatient... Wink It´s a lot of work.
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#22
Sorry.
Sometimes. i´m a little bit to rough. And my english is to bad to say really what i mean whitout beeing unfriendly.
Marcus Iulius Chattus
_______________________
Marcus-Gerd Hock

Me that ave been what i´ve been-
Me that ave gone where i´ve gone-
Me that ave seen what i´ve seen-
...Me!
(Rudyard Kipling)
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#23
No problem. Smile
Christian K.

No reconstruendum => No reconstruction.

Ut desint vires, tamen est laudanda voluntas.
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#24
Big Grin
That´s really crazy. You are a Bavarian and i´m a Hesse (born and grow up near F.a.M) and we write in english :lol: But back to the topic. Both helmets are really nice early examples.
Marcus Iulius Chattus
_______________________
Marcus-Gerd Hock

Me that ave been what i´ve been-
Me that ave gone where i´ve gone-
Me that ave seen what i´ve seen-
...Me!
(Rudyard Kipling)
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