Iphicratian Pelte & Pelte Sarrisophoron

[Paullus Scipio]

Paul B. wrote:-

Why on earth are you looking for a greek tradition of oval shields? Iphicrates clearly took the shape from someplace outside of the normal tradition, hence the "reform".

...because if Iphicrates "pelte" was of a new or unusual shape, we should have been told so. In all this hypothetical discussion of 'oval' pelte, we are in danger of losing sight of the fact that in both sources, Iphicrates 'reform' is said to be the replacement of the Hoplite's Aspis with the Pelte, not the introduction of a 'new' or differently shaped one.
Themistoklis wrote:-

A light crescent or not pelt from wicker would offer more the psychological impression to the wielder that he was protected to a degree than actual protection.A spear and other weapons would run it through easily indeed.

I wouldn't be too sure of that! From Homer's time on we hear of shields made of multiple layers of Hide that provide adequate protection.... a wicker shield could be covered by more than one layer of Hide and still be light, and clearly they were adequate enough to protect against javelins, arrows, and slingstones ( which could dent helmets and concuss the wearer, remember! ). Herodotus however tells us that Persian wicker Gerra/sparabara were inadequate to keep out a determined Hoplite heavy spear thrust, or sword slash .....but then peltasts had no business fighting Hoplites hand-to-hand anyway, and didn't usually !!

[sitalkes]

Chris, I was unaware that they were supposed to have been armed with them both at the same time- as opposed to either/or. Is there a reference for this?

As to Thureophoroi, their lonche were shorter than dorys, right? So not much different than throwing pila.

Parke (p 80) says he thinks it very unlikely that it was possible for a long spear to be carried in addition to javelins, and that this change probably wasn’t part of the Iphicratean reforms. JK Anderson (p130) concurs that it must have been impossible to hold a twelve foot spear and simultaneously throw javelins. Best (p 103) disagrees, though, saying that the javelin had previously been a peltast’s standard equipment and was unlikely to have been thrown out. He thinks that the Iphicratean peltast was armed like the Thracians – with some peltasts being armed with long spears, and some with javelins. Duncan Head (p 97 AOTMAPW) says that there is no evidence that the long spears were any commoner after the reforms than before, or that the 4m type was ever used. No battle accounts speak of peltasts using spears, so they may not have been standard equipment. Against this, he says that the thureophoroi did use both long spears and javelins, so they may have been using a long-established practice. Also, Nepos actually says that the short spears (brevibus hastis) were replaced (not supplemented) by longer spears.

I have not found a reference yet for the thureophoroi spear lengths other than Duncan Head's comment (perhaps it's in Luke's article, I'll have to check). There's a similar argument about whether it was possible to use a rhomphaia with javelins.

[PMBardunias]

...because if Iphicrates "pelte" was of a new or unusual shape, we should have been told so. In all this hypothetical discussion of 'oval' pelte, we are in danger of losing sight of the fact that in both sources, Iphicrates 'reform' is said to be the replacement of the Hoplite's Aspis with the Pelte, not the introduction of a 'new' or differently shaped one.

I would submit that "peltas summetrous" could be read as you would read "thorakes linenoi", the qualifier setting it apart from anything in the greek tradition. Otherwise why not simply call it a pelta, or qualify it through some connection with a greek troop type who had a round pelta?

[PMBardunias]

Against this, he says that the thureophoroi did use both long spears and javelins, so they may have been using a long-established practice. Also, Nepos actually says that the short spears (brevibus hastis) were replaced (not supplemented) by longer spears.

The short spears being a single hoplite Dory, none too short, in Nepos, correct? How did the Romans manage to throw one pilum and hold the other?

I have not found a reference yet for the thureophoroi spear lengths other than Duncan Head's comment (perhaps it's in Luke's article, I'll have to check). There's a similar argument about whether it was possible to use a rhomphaia with javelins.

I would question whether a 12' spear can be weilded effectively with one hand- or a romphaia for that matter I remember an article of Anderson's where he paints thureophoroi as essentially the same as roman pila-armed troops, so he would imply shorter spears. (less than an 8' dory)

[Paullus Scipio]

Paul B. wrote:-

I would submit that "peltas summetrous" could be read as you would read "thorakes linenoi", the qualifier setting it apart from anything in the greek tradition. Otherwise why not simply call it a pelta, or qualify it through some connection with a greek troop type who had a round pelta?

...I wouldn't disagree that the 'symmetrous' is a qualifier, but it is more likely to distinguish a round pelte ( for which there is plenty of other evidence) from a crescent- shaped one, rather than an oval type( for which there is no evidence......) Besides, Nepos specifically tells us 'round', and he was likely drawing on the same source as Diodorus, so 'symmetrous' is almost certainly round too.....

[MeinPanzer]

By the way, have any reenactors tried to reconstruct a double-armed Iphicratean peltast? How practical is it to try to wield a twelve foot/4m spear and a pair of javelins at the same time? Many authors say that this is impossible, but apparently the thureophoroi did it. I suppose they stuck the long spear in the ground while they threw the javelins?

The painted stele of Dionysios, a Bithynian mercenary who died in Alexandria, shows the deceased equipped with a thureos, two short javelins and a longer fighting spear, so it is obviously not impossible. My guess is that they just bundled the javelins and the spear in the shield hand while skirmishing.

...because if Iphicrates "pelte" was of a new or unusual shape, we should have been told so. In all this hypothetical discussion of 'oval' pelte, we are in danger of losing sight of the fact that in both sources, Iphicrates 'reform' is said to be the replacement of the Hoplite's Aspis with the Pelte, not the introduction of a 'new' or differently shaped one.

The shields aren't mentioned as being 'new' because those sources are writing from a later perspective. By the time of those authors, everyone in the Greek world who had any sort of contact with the military would be familiar with the oval shield. So, they were replacing the old aspis with a pelte, but for these later authors, a pelte no longer referred to the old type of crescent-shaped pelte. And, as Paul points out, the fact that they felt it necessary to qualify the word pelte with a specific adjective points to the fact that these shields were atypical.

I have not found a reference yet for the thureophoroi spear lengths other than Duncan Head's comment (perhaps it's in Luke's article, I'll have to check). There's a similar argument about whether it was possible to use a rhomphaia with javelins.

Or, for that matter, how one wielded a rhomphaia with a shield like a thureos.

...I wouldn't disagree that the 'symmetrous' is a qualifier, but it is more likely to distinguish a round pelte ( for which there is plenty of other evidence) from a crescent- shaped one, rather than an oval type( for which there is no evidence......) Besides, Nepos specifically tells us 'round', and he was likely drawing on the same source as Diodorus, so 'symmetrous' is almost certainly round too.....

This is going in circles... Iphicrates' reforms were to arm his troops with unusual equipment, so for examples of their armament we should look to which shape of shield is commonest in the archaeological record? And at any rate, we have already established that there is evidence for oval shields being used in Thrace, where Iphicrates lived for some time, only 30 to 40 years after his death, and that it's not a stretch to imagine that they first began to replace the crescent pelte in the first half of the fourth century BC.

And Nepos is most certainly not drawing on the same source as Diodorus, considering that he tells us they were armed with mail.

[PMBardunias]

Besides, Nepos specifically tells us 'round'

Nepos must surely be considered unreliable for the reason stated above. The limited sourcing and the vagueness of their wording make it impossible to argue for round or oval based on written history.

I think the question hinges on whether or not a 12' spear can be weilded one handed. If so they are more like thureophoroi and can be expected to have simmilar capabilities.

If not they are more like Sarissaphoroi, with shared limitations. I am unaware of sarissaphoroi ever using oval shields. I'm also not sure I've ever seen an oval shield with a porpax where the ovoid extended vertically and not horizontally. (I've only seen this grip on "boetian shields", which are almost certainly an artistic invention and never truly existed) Horizontal width is not something that would aid an Iphicratid if he needed to hold the spear with the left hand.

[MeinPanzer]

I'm also not sure I've ever seen an oval shield with a porpax where the ovoid extended vertically and not horizontally. (I've only seen this grip on "boetian shields", which are almost certainly an artistic invention and never truly existed) Horizontal width is not something that would aid an Iphicratid if he needed to hold the spear with the left hand.

The only example I know of is from one of the figures in the Roman copies of the monumental Pergamene "dying Galatians" group. One figure from the group is a dead Galatian lying on his back, naked except for a belt around his waist, and his left arm is extended out through a vertically-oriented porpax on the inside of his thureos. There are some other problems with the representations of the Galatian equipment on these reliefs, however, and this seems like a fantastical invention of the sculptor, as this shield would be held horizontally with a porpax oriented in this manner!

[Hoplitesmores]

Cornelius Nepos 100-24 BC Round
-
Diodorus Siculus 90 –27 BC Round or oval

They lived in the same era if i have Nepos correct.

[MeinPanzer]

Cornelius Nepos 100-24 BC Round
-
Diodorus Siculus 90 –27 BC Round or oval

They lived in the same era if i have Nepos correct.

It doesn't matter that they lived in the same era because Nepos' comment that the Athenian hoplites wore mail armour in the early fourth century BC is clearly incorrect and makes all the other details that differ from Diodorus' account in his version, which clearly came from a different source, suspect.

[Hoplitesmores]

No arguing on the mail but what were their experiences? Did they serve in war? Where did they live?

[PMBardunias]

No arguing on the mail but what were their experiences? Did they serve in war? Where did they live?

For something like this I think we simply need to know who was the better copyist. We ideally want them to tell us exactly what an earlier writer recorded, not interject their opinions or interpretations as Nepos, or whomever he is reading, seems to have done. For this reason, a cloistered bookworm is perhaps better than a man with military experience. Experience is great in a primary author like Xenophon, but I am never sure reading Arrian, for example, how much he is misinterpreting through his own experience.

[sitalkes]

Hi, Illyrian infantry were supposed to have had oval shields, long spears, and javelins,, werene't they? So how similar were they to an Iphicratean peltast? Any chance Iphicrates fought against Illyrians?

[hoplite14gr]

top image in this page:
http://depthome.brooklyn.cuny.edu/class ... rrhic.html

4th century athenian glyph.


Kind regards

[Hoplitesmores]

He was sent to the Hellespont(389-388) and then fought for Odrysae(387) then to (378)Egypt then to Corcyra(373) then to Thrace again.Since he made the changes since 392 BC he had no contact with illyrians and had seen peltasts belonging to the Greeks and the Thracians perhaps.And he had seen Scythians too in Athens but i think its irrelevant since the were archers.