Crista Transversa

[caiusbeerquitius]

Has there been a discussion here about the question whether centurions actually had a crista transversa? I found nothing with the search function.
I just read an interesting article about this, so would like to discuss it - but maybe the discussion already takes place here somewhere?

To start: Is there actual evidence for the crista transversa in literature contemporary to the period when it was supposed to be worn? Later? How valuable?
Any other evidence which is not sculpture?
Which sculptural evidence is there at all?

[Peroni]

Which sculptural evidence is there at all?

In the imagebase we have Marcus Petronius Classicus...
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

Vegetius, II, 13, 16 speaks of centurions having the crista transversta for easier recognition by his men.

Here is a part of the tombstone of centurion T. Calidius Severus, at Carnuntum.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Talking of AD Roman Army:
J. Obmann, Waffen - Statuszeichen oder alltäglicher Gebrauchsgegenstand? in: H. v. Hesberg (ed.), Das Militär als Kulturträger in römischer Zeit, Köln, 1999.

Obmann makes quite a point that we in fact do not have any safe evidence for the Crista Tranversa except for the quotation by Vegetius, which does not hold against a critical interpretation of Vegetius´work.
All helmets which have fastenings for a crista do show only a front-back fastening, the crista holders we have as individual findings seem to show the same feature: Front-back.
Two tombstones from Carnuntum and Poetovio (see above) show a transverse crest but also transverse cheek pieces, which is a dillemma, as thus they are no longer a valuable source for this question. (Ask yourself what you would see, if the crista were displayed turned by 90°, or if the cheek pieces were in their actual position - The Romans knew a way to display e.g. cheek pieces from an angeld view, see Trajan´s column, for example)

I don´t want to take a position here except to say that Obmann´s thoughts are quite plausible to me.
I am wondering if this is yet another "myth" which we all take for granted ?

[jho]

All helmets which have fastenings for a crista do show only a front-back fastening, the crista holders we have as individual findings seem to show the same feature: Front-back.

I do not have a reference but I believe that one of the Siscia helmets had rings on each side of the skull which could have been used to fix a crista transversa. It might be this helmet but given the absence of a picture I am not sure:

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,96/

[Celer]

Salve,

There is a Gallic helmet with the fittings for a Centurion's crest, the Gallic 'F' from Sisac in Croatia. One side-ring is intact, and the hole for the second is clearly visible. In addition, the helmet is covered in three layers of silver foil and has silver rosettes.

Vale,

Celer.

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

I would add to the above posts that the tombstones do not seem to show "transverse cheek pieces." They show frontal views of the helmets, presenting the cheek pieces - and the crest - the way they actually seen as you look at the helmet from the front (see the pic). This is particularly evident from the tombstone of of centurion T. Calidius Severus, which depicts a somewhat 3-dimensional image of the helmet. The cheek pieces curve along with the bowl from the sides to the front. The crest, however, is a plain transverse crest. It would take an immensely wild stretch of imagination and disregard of other items presented on the tomb to see this crest in a "front-back" position.

The references from Vegetius, in this case supported by the above archaeological data, provide IMO a strong piece of evidence.

Some of the found helmets have a slot for a crest holder, but have no specific attachment devices (e.g., Itallic D featured on the photo). Some of those helmets could have been used by centurions, who could attach their transverse crest w/o any extra devices on the bowl - see the same pic.

[Tarbicus]

I think you have to ask yourself if the T. Calidius Severus helmet would have had a crest that ran so far forward to almost meet the brow, and each half, front to back, would be so symmetrical. I feel otherwise, and it would be shorter at the front than the back.

You are right in saying that there are no found transverse crest holders AFAIK, but that wouldn't be too surprising given the legionary/centurion ratio IMHO. The waters can also be muddied by every helmet found with gilding or tinning is suddenly attributed to having belonged to a centurion, whereas there might never have actually been any officer helmets found at all, for all we know :roll: (that said, one of you out there is bound point to a helmet with a centurion inscribed as the owner :wink: )

Besides, here's another transverse crest on the grave stele of centurion Marcus Petronius Classicus:
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

[Doc]

My friend who had a Gallic D made by Brian Stobbs has a crest holder that is riveted to the bottom of the crest box and then slides into the top of the helmet.

If you see the tombstone of the centurion transeverse crest with supposed horse hair (I do not recall at the moment whose this is, but it was mentioned I believe previously on this thread) you will notice that the crest holder goes directly into the bottom of the crest box. This is why my friend chose the attachment he did not to mention it is quite low on the top of the helmet. (I believe the thread on RAT is New Gallic D Reconstruction; there are photos of the helmet)

I know that it is a sculpture but how many things are based on sculpture thus the attachment can be logical. One may argue and say that the crest cannot be removed. Well if the crest has to be removed, then it was probably damaged in which case it makes no difference. At least the crest holder is still useable rivets or not.

Also a crest holder with three "spikes" is ideal since it does not need to be tied down. The one in the center stops it from shifting because it would be stuck into the wood. The other two would stop it from swaying or spinning.

I believe Robinson has the three "spiked" crest holder.

The Gallic D helmet, if one were to accept the idea of a Centurions helmet since it is so finely decorated has no side loops, or front loops or holes anywhere for that matter. The slot for the crest holder is double shafted indicating that something was secured not to rock side to side. The question then becomes how would the crest box sit. So my friend opted the crestbox into the wood with small rivets or the three "spiked" crest can be used.

Paolo

[caiusbeerquitius]

I think you have to ask yourself if the T. Calidius Severus helmet would have had a crest that ran so far forward to almost meet the brow, and each half, front to back, would be so symmetrical. I feel otherwise, and it would be shorter at the front than the back.

I think this can hardly be answered. If the helmet were displayed like this to show the crest, although it actually would have run front-back, then it would probably be like this for symmetry, sculptor´s choice...

You are right in saying that there are no found transverse crest holders AFAIK, but that wouldn't be too surprising given the legionary/centurion ratio IMHO. The waters can also be muddied by every helmet found with gilding or tinning is suddenly attributed to having belonged to a centurion, whereas there might never have actually been any officer helmets found at all, for all we know (that said, one of you out there is bound point to a helmet with a centurion inscribed as the owner )

I don´t say that, I was just repeating what Obmann says. I just thought I start a discussion, since on the one hand his arguments are plausible, on the other hand one also can make good points FOR the crista transversa.

MY thought would be that the epigraphical sources are more or less useless, since they are too much inspired by hellenistic imagery (read in that context "Soldiers and Ghosts", which may help following my thoughts), repeating e.g. also the greaves-and-sword-motive over and over again, at least for the greaves we have no further evidence...
including helmets.
If there were an actual helmet which could support the theory, I´d rather believe that it is right.
the helmet named above could be such an object, a thick silver dcoration and such even further supporting the theory of an officer´s item.
Pics would be great here...

[Magnus]

Is there greek evidence for transverse crests? That may shed some light on this.

[caiusbeerquitius]

Yes, I think so.

[MartinWard]

i think ...yes i do honest! but having spoken to a 'greek officer' at a multi period event, transverse crests were worn by officers, i believe that the spartans may have used transverse crests as well

[Peroni]

All helmets which have fastenings for a crista do show only a front-back fastening, the crista holders we have as individual findings seem to show the same feature: Front-back.

This is not entirely true Christian. Two helmets that I know of have transverse fittings..

We have the Gallic 'F' from the River Kupa at Sisak which was fitted with side fastenings for a transverse crest. The helmet was also silver-foil covered too and highly decorated.


The Gallic 'A' from Eich also has been retro-fitted with a crest finial and has had holes drilled through the brow guard to attach the end of the cerst block. (or feathers I guess)
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,96/

Paulo wrote..

I believe Robinson has the three "spiked" crest holder.

Yes, They are from Rheingonheim. We have a reconstruction..

[caiusbeerquitius]

This is not entirely true Christian. Two helmets that I know of have transverse fittings..

Again, this is not what I say, it´s what Obmann says. I just summarized it... :wink:

I see that the Sisak helmet situation is quite clear.
The Eich helmet... well. The holes don´t seem to be quite in line with the crest knob. I like the feather-solution much better.

Then the next question is: Does the Sisak helmet belong to a centurion, i.e. do we have a inscription on it?

(My opinion would be that the silver decoration is a good hint, I´m just following Obmann´s argumentation)