spear or pilum?

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Paul,

I think that with the very long reply below I’ve exhausted my replies. It seems (as can be seen from the exchange below) that while we agree on many points about shifting meaning and generic use, we will continue to disagree about several other point, the main one I think being the translation of several words (xyston, kontos, others) with pilum, ‘because that spear was used by the legionary infantry’. I will challenge that view below, although I doubt it can be solved in this discussion.

Also, the inability for us modern folks to establish exactly what was meant by an ancient author, or to establish the exact technical details even for weapons of which we know the specific name and use, will in my opinion hamper this discussion too much to come to a generally accepted conclusion. There are too many variables.

But I’ll give it a go nonetheless. :wink:

dory =Great spear,long thrusting spear derived from 'plank'
kamax = long cavalry spear, derived from 'pole' or 'vine prop'
xyston = long cavalry spear, derived from 'pole' or 'spear shaft'
kontos = long cavalry spear, derived from 'punting pole' or 'barge pole'...but can also mean a boathook

....or for Roman missile weapons, we have, again not an exhaustive list:-

telum =missile weapons
pilum,spiculum=heavy throwing spear
jaculum, verutum=javelin
lancea= light/short dual purpose thrwing/thrusting spear
...not to mention martiobarbuli/plumbatum.

Thanks for that list!

Btw, it’s martiobarbulus/plumbatae (pl. martiobarbuli/plumbatae) :wink: :wink:

Now all of these are quite specific weapon types - but in some cases the name changes over time.
The difficulty occurs when Latin is translated into Greek and vice versa - there is no Latin equivalent of 'sarissa', because Romans didn't use it, nor a Greek equivalent of 'pilum' for the same reason, Greeks didn't use it.
Thus sarissa becomes a very long 'hasta'=spear-shaft/shafted weapon - but 'hasta' is not a direct translation of 'dory' (a specific weapon = long thrusting spear, whereas 'hasta' is generic)

We agree on the change of meaning!
But (while accepting that ‘hasta’ is a generic term), I still come across source after source where the ‘dory’ is used as a synonym for a ‘hasta’, or vice versa.
If ‘hasta’ is generic (‘hasta longa’ being a long spear and ‘hasta amentata’ being a shorter lancea), then it’s still surprising that ‘dory’ was used as a translation if a lancea was meant, or even a pilum!
But you yourself claim that the Greek ‘dory’ is a translation of the generic ‘hasta’, have you changed your mind? Yesterday you wrote:

......we have already seen that hasta can be a generic word for 'spears/shafted weapons' - and Herodian's 'dory' is just a greek translation of this.

And again:

and again, hasta/dory is just the generic term for 'shafted weapons'

Looks like a synonym to me! :wink:

So maybe Wheeler (2004) is correct in suggesting that many ancient authors, when writing about the ‘hasta’, had a longer spear in mind, rather than a shorter one.

Paullus Scipio\\n[quote] Vortigern Studies\\n[quote] Why do you interpret the ‘kontos’ as “un-mistakablyâ€

[Senovara]

Sorry I just want to butt in for moment and tell you guys how much I'm enjoying this discussion ... I have nothing to contribute to it, but I'm learning quite a lot, lol. :wink:

[Robert]

This great hyjacked thread has all the makings of a very good illustrated article in AWM (contact Jasper!), showing the evolvement of different speartypes (lenghts and points), their users and uses, and the different names used to describe them.
Me, I'll just continue hammering out different kinds of spearheads found at Newstead and other places. Anyone with pointers and pictures with scale feel free to send me stuff to hone my smithing skills on!
Totaly off topic: great avatar Sharon! That you?

[Paullus Scipio]

For Duncan:

Here are the relevant parts of Arrian's Contra Alani regarding the legions armament.....I haven't troubled to quote the greek in full.....

(The Legions)
"They should deploy in eight ranks and their deployment should be close ordered. And the front four ranks of the formation must be of spearmen, (kontophoroi) whose spearpoints end in thin iron shanks.( as I suggested, Arrian's words are fairly un-mistakeable...I don't think anything but a pilum fits the description.) And the foremost of them should hold them at the ready, in order that when the enemies near them, they can thrust the ironpoints of the spears at the breast of the horses in particular. Those standing in second, third and fourth rank of the formation must hold their spears ready for thrusting if possible, wounding the horses and killing the horsemen and put the rider out of action with the spear stuck in their heavy body armour and the iron point bent because of the softness. The following ranks should be of the javelineers.(longchophoroi) ( these throw their lancea overhead as part of the general 'missile barrage')

..... If they do close in though, the first three ranks should lock their shields and press their shoulders and receive the charge as strongly as possible in the most closely ordered formation bound together in the strongest manner. The fourth rank will throw their spears (i.e. the ones that end in thin iron shanks) overhead and the first rank will stab at them and their horses with their spears without pause.....

[D B Campbell]

For Duncan:
"... spearmen, (kontophoroi) whose spearpoints end in thin iron shanks.( as I suggested, Arrian's words are fairly un-mistakeable...I don't think anything but a pilum fits the description.) ... with the spear stuck in their heavy body armour and the iron point bent because of the softness.

It's the second bit that's interesting, Paul -- I hadn't noticed the bit about "bent iron [tip] on account of softness" before (Arr., Ectaxis 17).

[Senovara]

Totaly off topic: great avatar Sharon! That you?

yes, one of my few self-portraits, lol.

[Robert]

Wow, true beauty! Any native American/Inuit in you bloodline? Striking boneline. Walk proud!

[Paullus Scipio]

Robert has rather 'muddied the waters' with his last post, and also asked me to address a couple of points,and given that his post is long, and to avoid readers having to skip back and forth, I shall copy his post and intersperse my responses:-
Robert wrote:-
[quote]Hi Paul, Hi Robert, and everyone else following this thread!

I think that with the very long reply below I’ve exhausted my replies. Alas, our pleasant discourse on a most interesting subject must come to an end ! It seems (as can be seen from the exchange below) that while we agree on many points about shifting meaning and generic use, we will continue to disagree about several other point, the main one I think being the translation of several words (xyston, kontos, others) with pilum, yes, in general we are agreed, but the use of various greek words from the 1st C AD onward is where we differ... ‘because that spear was used by the legionary infantry’. Naughty Robert! :x I never gave that as a reason - you are putting false arguments into my mouth! I believe that Josephus 'xyston' and Arrian's 'kontos' are intended to translate/describe the 'pilum' on the internal evidence of the documents, which in turn is supported by archaeological and iconographic evidence I will challenge that view below, although I doubt it can be solved in this discussion. ...you set up a completely false point in order to demolish it?
Also, the inability for us modern folks to establish exactly what was meant by an ancient author, or to establish the exact technical details even for weapons of which we know the specific name and use, will in my opinion hamper this discussion too much to come to a generally accepted conclusion. There are too many variables. I don't think that is true - rather that we can establish what weapons are referred to in many, if not most cases
But I’ll give it a go nonetheless. ....that's more like it! D

Paullus Scipio wrote:

dory =Great spear,long thrusting spear derived from 'plank'
kamax = long cavalry spear, derived from 'pole' or 'vine prop'
xyston = long cavalry spear, derived from 'pole' or 'spear shaft'
kontos = long cavalry spear, derived from 'punting pole' or 'barge pole'...but can also mean a boathook

....or for Roman missile weapons, we have, again not an exhaustive list:-

telum =missile weapons
pilum,spiculum=heavy throwing spear
jaculum, verutum=javelin
lancea= light/short dual purpose thrwing/thrusting spear
...not to mention martiobarbuli/plumbatum.


Thanks for that list!

Btw, it’s martiobarbulus/plumbatae ..surely plumbata ? (pl. martiobarbuli/plumbatae)

Paullus Scipio wrote:
Now all of these are quite specific weapon types - but in some cases the name changes over time.
The difficulty occurs when Latin is translated into Greek and vice versa - there is no Latin equivalent of 'sarissa', because Romans didn't use it, nor a Greek equivalent of 'pilum' for the same reason, Greeks didn't use it.
Thus sarissa becomes a very long 'hasta'=spear-shaft/shafted weapon - but 'hasta' is not a direct translation of 'dory' (a specific weapon = long thrusting spear, whereas 'hasta' is generic)


We agree on the change of meaning!
But (while accepting that ‘hasta’ is a generic term), I still come across source after source where the ‘dory’ is used as a synonym for a ‘hasta’, or vice versa. ..careful here, lest we raise more confusion than we resolve! We have seen that 'Hasta' is often translated(not a synonym for) as 'Dory' and vice versa, but that the two were in fact different. Here is a modern example - shooting down aircraft is referred to in German as 'luftsieg' lit: aerial victory, but in English the more brutal word 'kill' is used. The one is invariably translated as the other, but they do not mean the same thing at all!If ‘hasta’ is generic (‘hasta longa’ being a long spear and ‘hasta amentata’ being a shorter lancea), then it’s still surprising that ‘dory’ was used as a translation if a lancea was meant, or even a pilum!
But you yourself claim that the Greek ‘dory’ is a translation of the generic ‘hasta’, have you changed your mind? Not at all! This another false point! I agree that 'hasta' is often translated as 'dory' and vice versa, but that does not mean that they mean the same thing at all - see my example above... Yesterday you wrote:
Paullus Scipio wrote:
......we have already seen that hasta can be a generic word for 'spears/shafted weapons' - and Herodian's 'dory' is just a greek translation of this.

And again:
Paullus Scipio wrote:
and again, hasta/dory is just the generic term for 'shafted weapons'

Looks like a synonym to me!
Not so, as I have demonstrated above - one may be used as the translation of the other but that does not mean they have the same meaning.....here's another example from recent warfare - a 'Tank' in English ( digression: for security reasons in WW1 when the tank was invented it was labelled as water 'tank' to be sent to Russia, to fool German spies) is translated as a 'panzer'lit: armour, in German but the two words are not synonymous!
So maybe Wheeler (2004) is correct in suggesting that many ancient authors, when writing about the ‘hasta’, had a longer spear in mind, rather than a shorter one.
Yes, I would agree that use of 'hasta' seems quite often to imply an Infantry thrusting spear. A short digression on generic shafted/spear-type weapons may be in order here - and this a very rough classification.
javelins ; throwing weapons, generally 3-4 ft long (with both longer - 5ft hunting javelins, and shorter - the 'plumbata' - exceptions), usually thin shafted with small heads
short dual purpose spear; dual purpose weapon which may be thrown or used to thrust, generally 5-6 ft long, with a spear point and long wooden shaft, thicker and stiffer than javelins. A general purpose weapon.
Heavy throwing weapons similar to above but for the more specialised purpose of being thrown, designed to penetrate shields and armour at fairly short range, usually having an 'armour piercing' point and often with metal or half-metal shafts for ease of penetration - the 'pilum/spiculum' or spanish all-iron 'saunion/soliferra' are typical, and around 5-7 ft long.
Long thrusting spear with a fairly thick, stiff shaft, generally 7-9 ft long, and a spear-head, designed to be used single-handed with a shield. The greek 'Dory' is typical - weapons longer than 9ft are usually considered too unwieldy for one-handed use.
Cavalry Lances Thrusting spears, but generally longer than infantry ones to give more reach from horseback, typically around 10-12 ft long but may be longer.
Pikes very long thrusting spears, used two-handed, usually by Infantry. The Macedonian 'sarissa' at 15-18 ft long is typical.
Paullus Scipio wrote:
Vortigern Studies wrote:
Why do you interpret the ‘kontos’ as “un-mistakablyâ€

[D B Campbell]

You must've worn your keyboard out with that last post, Paul. :wink:

By the way, you really ought to investigate using the "Quote" function -- it would make your post a lot easier to follow!

[Paulus Claudius Damianus]

Very interesting discussion!!

[Paullus Scipio]

Duncan wrote:

You must've worn your keyboard out with that last post, Paul.

Yeah, luckily I have a spare, and most of the post was written for me by Robert! D lol: ;

By the way, you really ought to investigate using the "Quote" function -- it would make your post a lot easier to follow!

...you're not very observant are you? I use the quote function all the time! :wink:

In this instance, for some reason, the 'quote' function didn't carry over when I 'copied' Robert's post and later submitted......

My apologies for any inconvenience (

At least I went to the trouble of changing the font and colour, for the benefit of the reader !

[Robert]

A question, kind gentlemen!

short dual purpose spear; dual purpose weapon which may be thrown or used to thrust, generally 5-6 ft long, with a spear point and long wooden shaft, thicker and stiffer than javelins. A general purpose weapon.

Would this type of spear have a buttspike when placed in a Germanic context of round 70 AD??

[maarten]

I agree with Robert, a lot is still unknown about the names and functions of all the "spears".

As said in this tread earlier in almost all auxilia forts pila heads and segmentata parts etc are found. It is very common to say that these came from legionaries passing by or temporarily moving in. I do not believe that. If that would be the case, then we would have found them only occasionally in these auxiliaforts.

However, if we look at the monuments, official ones and private ones we see legionaries with pila and auxilia with "hasta". Or have I missed some monuments.

Maarten

[Paullus Scipio]

Robert W. wrote

Would this type of spear have a buttspike when placed in a Germanic context of round 70 AD??

If the well-known relief from Mainz c.75 AD showing an auxiliary carrying a lancea, with two more held behind his flat oval shield is any guide, then apparently not.
Maarten wrote:-

I agree with Robert, a lot is still unknown about the names and functions of all the "spears".

...and so do I ! A great deal remains unknown, but for now we must make our best guess based on the information we have, which is where Robert V. and I differ in some respects, and why we are having this interesting discussion.Everyone else must consider the matters each of us has expounded, and then reach their own conclusions.Don't forget too that a new piece of information coming to light can change matters as well !

However, if we look at the monuments, official ones and private ones we see legionaries with pila and auxilia with "hasta". Or have I missed some monuments.

Now you must be careful with your terminology here, Maarten ! :? Do you mean 'Hasta' in a generic sense? Or do you mean 'thrusting spear'? ....and what period are you referring to?
If you mean Josephus/Arrian's time - say the first and second centuries AD, then auxilaries ( such as the chap from Mainz referred to above) clearly generally carry lancea, and if the monuments are at all unclear, then this is backed up by literature where the weapons of "Roman soldiers" (legionaries and auxiliaries) are almost invariably "pila and lanceis" - but I am also reasonably confident that long Hasta and ordinary javelins were probably used too.....

[Robert]

OOHHH, this is getting really confusing .... Things were so nice and simple when a hasta was a hasta (large leafshaped point, buttspike, six foot ash pole an inch in diameter). Now I don't know what to make Jasper any more ..... he asked for hasta's .....
Will just make him 6 foot thrusting spears with inch thick pole and buttspike, 4 foot throwing spears with smaller heads 1/2 inch poles, and some massive 7 foot Celtic horsestickers with 17 inch points and killer buttspike. At least it will be a truely fearsome array of pointed poles