spear or pilum?

[Robert]

Salve Omnes!

As just about everyone with a good knowledge or opinion on spears has had a go at this thread, I have chosen it over starting a new one to ask a question that is rather important to me. I have recently dug into the finds of Nijmegen to get an accurate picture of the spears around in middle first century and in use with the Batavian aux (so I am not talking about pila). Basicly, I have found three distintive classifications. One is the hasta type stabbing spear (which may be called differently), with a broud leafshaped point (5 centimeters) and a shank varying between 1.8 and 2.5, length 18 to 25 centimeters, second is the lancea, 25 to 30 long, with a long, narrow (3 to 4 centimeter) point and slender shank measuring around 1.8 centimeters. Then there are the throwing spears, length 10 to 16 centimeters, shank diameter 1 to 1.6.

The question is on shaftthickness and buttspikes.
The finds suggest a pole diameter of around 22 millimeters for a hasta, a diameter of around 18 for a lancea and about 1.6 centimeters for a short throwing spear.
I have only found buttspikes in the diameter range equivalent to the hasta. Could I presume both javelin and short throwing spears did not have a butt spike and do the shaft diameters I have quoted add up to an overall picture for this period shared by others??

[Paullus Scipio]

Very, interesting, Robert....the Hastae shafts are a little thicker than the Greek 'Dory' shafts which were mostly 17-19mm, with some as thin as 16mm, and some as much as 20 mm.

One thing I find a little surprising is that the javelins were thicker than the short dual purpose spears (Lancea)....I would have expected the thinnest to be the javelins.

As to butt spikes, that would be correct for both Greek and Roman weapons....the butt spike is for 'long' thrusting spears, while generally ( and no doubt there will be exceptions), the lancea and javelins would not have them....after all, no sense putting an expensive piece of metal on a weapon you are literally going to throw away now, is there?
Additionally, in order to 'fly' true a missile weapon needs to be 'nose-heavy' and a butt-spike would not assist this......

[Robert]

I may have made a mistake in terminology. :oops: The classification Lancea was used by me as a translation of "lanspunt" or lancepoint. These have the characteristics I described, 25 to 30 long, with a long, narrow (3 to 4 centimeter) point and slender shank measuring around 1.8 centimeters This would make them probable for throwing as well as stabbing, shaftlength somewhere like 1.75 meter, no buttspike, right?
The throwing spears have a much narrower shank, are much shorter in lenght (10 to 14 centimeters overall) and I have understood from other posts that these had a shaftlenght of around 135. Would this make them vellites? They could have had shafts of only 1.4 centimeters in diameter.

[cjasper_fernandez07]

roman legions is the best and fearsome armies of the ancient world, a professional bodies of soldiers with a battle cry of strength and honor i'll bet even mongols and chinese has no match for this perfect killing machine, by the way my favorite legions are legion x and xiii equites, they are the best legions.

[cjasper_fernandez07]

romans hands down! the way they fought, the discipline and heavy armor plus their artillery even mongols ask help for the chinese still a miss match battle there will be slaughter a crushing defeat for both of them,

[PMBardunias]

the Hastae shafts are a little thicker than the Greek 'Dory' shafts which were mostly 17-19mm, with some as thin as 16mm, and some as much as 20 mm.

Or they might have been of similar width, because the dory may have tapered towards the point. (Cross posting, but those here may not have read the other thread)

[Robert]

Salve Paul!

Cross posting from where? I am assuming some taper on the shaft to fit the shanks of the spearheads. It also makes for a beter fit, as the shank is forced open just a little, really clamping on. The shanks are not of a uniform diameter through out. The bottom diameter is roughly the same, but shanklength does vary and so the angle of the taper. I have taken that into account in the proposed shaft diameters. I am somewhat unfamiliar with the javelin and had presumed this to be a lancea. Should I read "velite" where javelin is mentioned and conclude this is the same as the throwing spear heads to which I am refering?

[Magnus]

roman legions is the best and fearsome armies of the ancient world, a professional bodies of soldiers with a battle cry of strength and honor i'll bet even mongols and chinese has no match for this perfect killing machine, by the way my favorite legions are legion x and xiii equites, they are the best legions.

Cjasper, please put your real name in your signature...forum rule. Also, try not to derail forum discussions by adding in a completely different topic. Thanks.

[PMBardunias]

Cross posting from where? I am assuming some taper on the shaft to fit the shanks of the spearheads.

We were discussing spear diameter on the greek side: "How hoplites carried their spears"

Hoplite dorys in later periods may have tapered greatly, and, along with the light head and heavy sauretor, had a balance point within the first 1/4 of the spear length from the butt-end. This greatly increases the reach, but there are costs.