pugio attachment

[Robbie Phillips]

Any evidence or discussion of a Pugio attached to a belt the same way the Gladius was? The pic below is from the "Hand Book of the Legionaries"
Web site: http://www.larp.com/legioxx/hndbk.html

I know of the frogs on belt attachments but the presence of four loops/rings on most Pugio sheaths made me wonder. Any feedback is appreciated!

[Peroni]

It is quite feasable that pugiones were attached to the belt in this way prior to the emergence of the dagger frogs on the military belt.

The belt fittings from Numantia (Punic wars) have what can be described as a "proto-frog" It's the same shape as the later dagger frog, but completely flat. This drawing comes from Bishop and Coulston..


Most early imperial depictions do however show the pugio attached by means of frogs. The Rhineland tombstones being a fantastic source of info.

[Robbie Phillips]

Peroni,
Thanks for the tips. I'll go through the archives here on RAT and take a look.

[Crispvs]

The evidence from the Rhineland tombstones, usefully backed up by the evidence from the Velson pugio sheath, demonstrate that during the first century AD the lower two suspension rings we not used, whilst the upper suspension rings were attached (probably by laces rather than by leather loops) to frogs.
However, the tombstone of the centurio Minucius from Padova dating to the late(?) first century BC shows that daggers may have been suspended in different ways in different ages. Minucius' pugio hangs horizontally, presumably making used of both the upper and lower suspension rings on one side only.
Going back further, there is a good deal of evidence to show that the Spanish daggers the Roman ones were decended from were often attached to a wide baldric and were positioned on the chest. Some of these are provided with two rings on each side and are assumed to have been worn diagonally, with the rings being laced or strapped together behid the baldric. Others have just the upper ring on one side and the lower ring on the other side, suggesting they were positioned vertically on diagonal baldrics.

Therefore, how you suspend your pugio is going to be dependent on what period you are recreating.

Crispvs

[Robbie Phillips]

Thanks for the info Crispvs.
I've looked through the image data base focusing on Aux. Infantry. Most show from the 1st Cen. AD the pugio attached by the top rings to a frog type device on the belt with the lower rings unused.

It looks like the top rings of the sheath are directly attached to the frogs with no room to spare for straps/laces. (discussed on RAT before :wink: )
Its still hard to tell if the artists just placed the pugio there to finish the job or if thats how they were attached at that time period.

My impression is AUX. early 1st century AD. I've studied the "twin belt" system and have followed the suggested hight and width for the plates. I'm ready to start and figured the pugio will come first and then decide on a way attach it to the belt.

[Crispvs]

The close positioning of the suspension rings to the frog buttons is my priciple reason for rejecting the normal suggestion of using two leather loops. I think that the position evident on the tombstones is most likely to be produced by tying a leather lace around to the suspension ring and then tying it to the frog in the closest position possible using the same lace.
I do not agree that the suspension rings were somehow fitted over the frog buttons as most surviving suspension rings are not big enough to be able to do this with them.

"Most show from the 1st Cen. AD the pugio attached by the top rings to a frog type device on the belt with the lower rings unused."

Are there any that show any other arrangments? As far as I know, suspension from the upper rings only was the standard method of carriage during the first century AD.

Crispvs

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

The close positioning of the suspension rings to the frog buttons is my priciple reason for rejecting the normal suggestion of using two leather loops. I think that the position evident on the tombstones is most likely to be produced by tying a leather lace around to the suspension ring and then tying it to the frog in the closest position possible using the same lace.
Crispvs

I use that metod!

[M. Demetrius]

That's gorgeous! What material is used to fill in the engraving?

[Magnus]

Here's the thread where Cesar made his pugio:

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=11470

[M. Demetrius]

Thanks, Magnus. Don't know how I missed that whole thread. *sigh*
:roll:

[M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER]

The close positioning of the suspension rings to the frog buttons is my priciple reason for rejecting the normal suggestion of using two leather loops. I think that the position evident on the tombstones is most likely to be produced by tying a leather lace around to the suspension ring and then tying it to the frog in the closest position possible using the same lace.

It is not difficult to achieve the closest possible positioning of the pugio suspension rings to the frogs using leather loops. It is just the matter of making the loops short enough for the task. Then one only needs to bend the belt between the frogs to bring the two frogs together as close as needed for the attachment of the loops to the frogs.

[Robbie Phillips]

M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER
(Alexander K) ,
Thanks for posting the pic. That is definatley a tight fit to the belt!

[Crispvs]

It is true that you have produced a tight fit, but the evidence shows the suspension rings right next to and even overlapped by the frog buttons, which is why I no longer support the leather loop idea. I think Cesar has succeeded in coming closest to the correct positioning but even in his photo the suspension rings are not close enough to the frog buttons. However, that said, the rigid vertical positioning of the the sheath itself in your photo appears to be in keeping with the contemporaty depictions. The frogs just need to be much closer to it.

Crispvs

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Alexander,

I think you have solved the problem with Russian ingenuity!

I once read a story that NASA spent 1 million dollars in research to develop a ink pen that would write in zero gravity.....The Russian cosmonaut solution, was to use a pencil :wink:

I do not know if that story is true or not, but its certainly entertaining.

Sometimes the simplest method is the best.

[Crispvs]

I agree that the solution to achieving the steady vertical position of the sheath works well. However, the ancient sculptural evidence show no space between the frogs and the sheath, hence my preferred solution of the sheath being tightly laced to the frogs. Is this close position achievable with your solution Alexander?

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/


Crispvs