Sculpture from Volterra Museum

[Gaius]

Salvete

In the issue 4 of Ancient Warfare there is a depiction of a republican legionary by Graham Summer (page 15) that shows a padded felt subarmalis under the pectorale, and the caption points that the reconstruction of such subarmalis is based in a sculpture from the Volterra Museum.
Please could you tell me where can I find a image of that sculpture?

Thanks.

[Graham Sumner]

Hi
It will be in 'Arms and Armour of the Roman Soldier', By Raffaele D'Amato and myself to be published soon.

Graham.

[Gaius]

Hope it will be published soon... :wink: :wink:

[Paullus Scipio]

Hi, Graham...great illustration, but, as Colombo used to say, there's just one little thing that bothers me..........

I notice that the crest you've shown follows Duncan Head's 1982 interpretation of 3 C B.C.-early 2 C B.C. roman crests, and taken from Polybius' description (VI.23.9) "Finally they wear as an ornament a circle of feathers with three upright purple/crimson or black feathers about a cubit in height...."
Now Duncan and I debated this before AMandPW came out, for though this interpretation matches the description, my objection was that nothing like that exists in the iconography...and as near as we can tell from archaeology and iconography ( what little there is), horsehair crests were worn by many, which goes un-mentioned by Polybius ( which may be because he is describing differences from Greek gear for his readers who might take horsehair for granted). A semi-circle of feathers in a horizontal crest is well-known from other Italic peoples, as is the 'triple crest' such as that in Dan Diffendale's avatar, which matches Polybius' description and icongraphy well. Duncan used to say "..there is no reason Romans should not have been different to other Italic peoples..." and I took an opposing view, that nothing about them was unique, to the point where it is often hard to tell a 'Roman' from a 'Samnite' for example. There is now evidence from a Sicilian monument (cited here on RAT) of a Montefortino Roman helmet with three feathers set in a semi-circle over the crest- one each side and one in the centre. I believe even Duncan might now revise his interpretation with this recent evidence.
Now we are talking about very few pieces of evidence here, but I think ( and have always thought) that Duncan's old interpretation ( also followed by Igor Dzis in his Magnesia illustration) was flawed because it was a reconstruction based solely on a description, and there was no iconographic evidence to support it, while there was iconographic evidence to support other interpretations.......
Perhaps you will forgive me for using your excellent illustration as a focal point for opening a debate about Roman crests of the Great Wars period, but it would be good to round up all the possible evidence and put this particular interpretation into perspective.........
All evidence invited !!

[Nectanebo]

Hi
It will be in 'Arms and Armour of the Roman Soldier', By Raffaele D'Amato and myself to be published soon.

Graham.

Cool! Great news, I'm looking forwards to that.

Who's publishing it?

[MeinPanzer]

Hi, Graham...great illustration, but, as Colombo used to say, there's just one little thing that bothers me..........

I notice that the crest you've shown follows Duncan Head's 1982 interpretation of 3 C B.C.-early 2 C B.C. roman crests, and taken from Polybius' description (VI.23.9) "Finally they wear as an ornament a circle of feathers with three upright purple/crimson or black feathers about a cubit in height...."
Now Duncan and I debated this before AMandPW came out, for though this interpretation matches the description, my objection was that nothing like that exists in the iconography...and as near as we can tell from archaeology and iconography ( what little there is), horsehair crests were worn by many, which goes un-mentioned by Polybius ( which may be because he is describing differences from Greek gear for his readers who might take horsehair for granted). A semi-circle of feathers in a horizontal crest is well-known from other Italic peoples, as is the 'triple crest' such as that in Dan Diffendale's avatar, which matches Polybius' description and icongraphy well. Duncan used to say "..there is no reason Romans should not have been different to other Italic peoples..." and I took an opposing view, that nothing about them was unique, to the point where it is often hard to tell a 'Roman' from a 'Samnite' for example. There is now evidence from a Sicilian monument (cited here on RAT) of a Montefortino Roman helmet with three feathers set in a semi-circle over the crest- one each side and one in the centre. I believe even Duncan might now revise his interpretation with this recent evidence.

Yes, I think this is a major piece of evidence which has been often overlooked and which needs to be brought forth into the spotlight.

Duncan contacted me with a mention he had found of an Italian helmet on a proxeny decree for a Roman from Entella in Sicily. I had a look at my local university library, and by chance it happened to have a copy of a book which had a very nice picture of it. It dates from between 254 and 241 BC, and the helmet is definitely Roman because items depicted on proxeny decrees are representative of the person for whom the decree is intended. It looks like a perfect Montefortino depicted head-on with a feather on either side of the helmet and one coming out of the peak, as you can see.



As Duncan wrote after seeing it, it is rare that one finds such a perfect match between the archaeological record and the literary evidence.

[Tarbicus]

Flippin' 'eck!

Is that chiselled banding around the rim, as seen on found examples?

[Graham Sumner]

Actually I must confess to not using Duncan Head's book as a source (which I presume is 'Armies of the Punic and Macedonian wars').

I first saw the Polybian crest reconstructed by Connolly back in 1974 with his first Roman Army book. As regards Colombo, perhaps he might use a first hand witness rather than someone two thousand years later who only has fragments of the original sources to go on.

The new relief illustrated is in the Arms and Armour series at the publishers. As you can imagine it is very frustrating for both Raffaele and I that we have found so many new things which we want to present to the world almost as a first but in this day and age is very difficult to do. Even more so as because we presented so much material the one book which should have been released by now became three so inevitably there is a delay.

I was amazed myself how many images I had never seen before which have been collected, The series will not just be all the old familiar pictures we have all seen in all the standard works on Roman armour and equipment, virtually every picture will be something most RATers will be unfamiliar with. And I can guarantee there will more than a few surprises!

Republican crests with both feathers and horsehair will be illustrated and there is a reconstruction of the crest above which is not as you might at first think by looking at it.

Graham.

[MeinPanzer]

The new relief illustrated is in the Arms and Armour series at the publishers.

Are you referring to the Entella relief? If so, does that mean that it will finally be published in the corpus of works on Roman military history?

As you can imagine it is very frustrating for both Raffaele and I that we have found so many new things which we want to present to the world almost as a first but in this day and age is very difficult to do. Even more so as because we presented so much material the one book which should have been released by now became three so inevitably there is a delay.

Why is it so difficult? Do you mean because of problems with getting permission to publish new information, or are you referring to something else?

Republican crests with both feathers and horsehair will be illustrated and there is a reconstruction of the crest above which is not as you might at first think by looking at it.

Graham.

Do you care to explain, or do we just have to wait for it to be published?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Strange I posted this ages ago, here goes again.

When will it be out and with which publishers?

is it available on -line or in the stores?

[Graham Sumner]

Are you referring to the Entella relief? If so, does that mean that it will finally be published in the corpus of works on Roman military history?

Well I presume by what you say that the book it was published in was not on Roman Military history. In which case the answer is yes.

Why is it so difficult? Do you mean because of problems with getting permission to publish new information, or are you referring to something else?

While neither Raffaele or I are physically going out into the desert and excavating new finds, it still takes a lot of effort, time and money to discover, or perhaps more accurately re-discover many finds that have been subsequently 'lost' in obscure books, museum stores or even in one particular instance hidden away in the corner of one of the biggest museums in the world doubtless by-passed by hundreds of Roman enthusiasts everyday!

None of the evidence in my Roman military clothing series was new. However none of it was available for the re-enactor in any single published form or on any website and most of it was not in any book relating to the Roman army or even the Romans. Even a lot of specialist academics were amazed by what I had published, as they too had never seen many of the items in the books before.

It can cost over £150 to purchase and then get permission to publish a single image and I know Raffaele went to a lot of trouble to get pictures like the Entella relief and told me many times that it was little known and how pleased he was at getting an image and that we would be the first to show many things like this in their proper context. Many items of which will make people think about their pre-conceptions of Roman Military equipment

Like every 'explorer' one likes to be the first to announce their discoveries but I said it is difficult because with the Internet information can travel so fast. It only needs someone to casually visit a museum one day or to scan a picture in a book. I can imagine he will be quite gutted now that it has been posted here first. A bit like an archaeologist who has spent years working on a site but before his work is published a man with a metal detector comes along, finds something on the site and it gets splashed across the newspapers.

As I said had the book come out when it was supposed to, you would by now have both an photograph of the original and a reconstruction. Looking just at the picture alone it could be reconstructed as described above but with the other information that will be published alongside, a quite different method of attaching the crest emerges.

If it will change your life and you must see the image now, PM me your email address and I will send you the reconstruction. However if you can hang on for a few months, and believe me I am just as impatient to see everything published too, then I am sure it will be worth the wait.

Graham.

[Paullus Scipio]

Graham wrote:-

Like every 'explorer' one likes to be the first to announce their discoveries but I said it is difficult because with the Internet information can travel so fast. It only needs someone to casually visit a museum one day or to scan a picture in a book. I can imagine he will be quite gutted now that it has been posted here first. A bit like an archaeologist who has spent years working on a site but before his work is published a man with a metal detector comes along, finds something on the site and it gets splashed across the newspapers.

...yes, Graham, your disappointment is easy to understand! I too have got all excited at the prospect of a 'new' discovery, only to find that someone has been there before.)
As regards the Entella relief, I believe it was Duncan Head who first drew attention to it quite some time ago, and it came to my knowledge over six months ago when Reuben posted it here on RAT ( in the 'Onward and Upward: Carthaginian re-enactment thread').......so in this instance, perhaps you and Rafaele are the men with the metal detectors,looking for little known 'nuggets' to publish? D (
....And isn't it so often the case that 'discoveries' occur simultaneously in several places at the same time ?
In the light of the fact that you have 'access' to the latest knowledge, I am a little surprised that you illustrated the crest in the way you did, though in the light of your comments, it is perhaps understandable that you wished to protect your own publication......
Let us hope there will be no more delays in publishing, so we may all enjoy the fruits of your and Rafaele's labours ....your 'teasers' here and on other threads have certainly whet my appetite! :wink: :wink:

[Paullus Scipio]

Tarbicus/Jim wrote:-

Is that chiselled banding around the rim, as seen on found examples?

It certainly looks like it, and have you noted the shape of the cheekpieces? There's certainly no mistaking what it is.......
Duncan's comment is something of a masterful understatement.... :wink:

[Tarbicus]

and have you noted the shape of the cheekpieces? There's certainly no mistaking what it is.......

Noticed? It even has the rivets running across the top! If ever there was an ancient documentary photo of a found helmet, this is it at last :wink:

[Paullus Scipio]

Noticed? It even has the rivets running across the top! If ever there was an ancient documentary photo of a found helmet, this is it at last

...and presumably the 'dots' near the bottom of the cheekpieces represent the 'studs' that the chinstraps fasten to....c.f. cover of AW4