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02-26-2004, 01:40 AM

Reference Bishop and Coulston (1993) p 74 
"The question of suspension is vexed but it certainly seems that it started with the sword on one belt and the dagger on another (an arrangement still respected by the Herculaneum soldier even though he was not wearing a dagger). Precisely how the sword was suspended from the belt is unknown although various sugestions have been made. The advent of the single belt may have necesitated the adoption of a baldric (no examples of baldrics with a double belt are shown on the Rhineland tombstones), but we can not be certain of whether only two suspension rings, three, or even all four were employed. The baldric did not require a fastener of any kind since it could be slipped over the head and shoulder, but attempts to identify cavalry harness fasteners as baldric fittings persist, despite the obvious differences in decoration between infantry and cavalry equipment." 
 
My question regards the "various suggestions" for suspending the sword from the belt that Bishop and Coulston refer to. They chose not to elaborate but I am interested. Has anyone encountered anything in the literature about this? 
 
The use of the double belt by the legionary at Herculaneum fixes its use as late as 79 AD and this falls in the range I am shooting for in my impression. 
 
Thanks for your consideration here. 
 
Sam Kimpton 
LEG II AVG 
Portland, OR

aitor iriarte · 02-26-2004, 06:53 AM

Hi Sam, 
The Herculaneum soldier was wearing a dagger but I don't know details about its suspension system. He was wearing coins inside one of his belts, too. 
For attaching the sword to the belt, Peter Connolly has proposed for the earlier Delos 'Hispaniensis' a method involving a criss-crossed leather strap passed through the scabbard's four rings and fastened by a small buckle. 
 
Aitor

Crispvs · 02-26-2004, 07:33 PM

This type of attachment was also strongly suggested by the Mainz type gladius from Vindonissa, which was associated with the remains of a small buckle which seems rather too small to have been the connector for the military belt which was buried with the sword. The belt buckle in this case may have been replaced with an object which resembles a dagger frog which appears to have been attached by two holes in the plate to the belt. It has been suggested that a lace at the other end of the belt may have been wound repeatedly around the 'button' part of the object to secure it. Several objects, apparently of the same type, have been found at Kalkriese. 
 
With regards to two belts, Bishop and Coulston also refer to letters talking about pairs of belts which date to around AD100. 
 
Aitor, 
I have always been led to believe that the Herculanium soldier was without a dagger and that this fitted with other evidence which suggests that daggers were discontinued from service and disposed of some time in the AD70s. If you have a picture of this dagger could you post it so I and other pugiophiles can have a look at it? 
 
Crispvs

Matthew Amt · 02-26-2004, 08:47 PM

Avete! 
One option for suspending the gladius scabbard from the belt can be seen about halfway down the Legio XX Gladius page, 
 
www.larp.com/legioxx/gladius.html 
 
The Delos scabbard, and other hispaniensis scabbards, had TWO rings at the back edge, NOT four. It was also found with 2 little buckles, so I concluded a rig something like this: 
 
www.larp.com/legioxx/hispan1.jpg 
 
The sword is clearly shown hanging at this angle on the Altar of Ahenobarbus. 
 
I'm not sure I trust the interpretation of the Vindonissa sword. That piece with the disc is a fairly common find, generally interpreted as a cloak fastener. There were dozens found at Vindonissa, bone as well as bronze. It COULD have been jury-rigged onto a belt, but there was no indication in that article that the leather had survived to the extent that this could be determined. I'm a little iffy on that small buckle being used for the suspension "X-strap" on the scabbard, but am willing to live with it. 
 
On the discontinuation of the pugio, there are all those big 3rd century Kunzig daggers which would refute this, assuming they are properly dated. It has alway struck me as odd how similar they are to those from the first century BC: wide blade with simple midrib, even the frame scabbard. We are led to believe that they evolved from this form to a slimmer blade with fullers or a groove-defined rib, with first shell scabbards and then the "type B" wood sheaths with a metal front plate. But then a gap of a hundred years and suddenly the thing is revived--in its original form? Can anyone tell me how accurate the dating is on the Kunzig stuff? It was dug up before 1900, as I recall... 
 
Am I dragging this off-topic? Valete, 
 
Matthew/Quintus

Crispvs · 02-26-2004, 10:53 PM

The Bar Hill pugio handle proves that the daggers probably had a continuous history, but their scarcity during the late first and second centuries makes Scott's discontinuation hypothosis very attractive. The daggers themselves may not have been purely military either. They are shown on the coin issue celebrating the assassination of Caesar in association with a cap of freedom. The assassination was carried out by senators not soldiers and the image of the dagger must have been recognisable to people in the street otherwise it would not have been worth including in the image. It cannot have been specifically military in nature as this would not have suited the conspirators' purpose. I know that the Bar Hill handle comes from two centuries after Caesar but could daggers not have existed continuously in small numbers in civilian society whilst at the same time being banned in the army? We know that soldiers could recieve gifts from their families and perhaps the Bar Hill dagger was one such gift, paid for with a bribe to look the other way. Daggers could easily have been reintroduced from civilian society in the late second or early third century, when a military need for them may again have arisen. 
 
Crispvs Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=crispvs>Crispvs</A> at: 2/26/04 11:56 pm

02-26-2004, 11:27 PM

I have worn double belts for a while and followed the idea of the suspensions rings for the sword scabbard using crossed straps of leather. although I oringinally used buckles on the straps they are not required. <img src="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.martin/forum/mark.gif
" width="100" height="100" align="right">

02-26-2004, 11:31 PM

although I saw the pompeii and herculeaneum exhibition in Brussels photos were not allowed. which is a pity because the military kit was a bit unusual in some ways. i did some sketches/notes which i'll dig out if anyones interested <img src="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.martin/forum/mark.gif
" width="100" height="100" align="right">

02-27-2004, 12:42 AM

Thanks for all the replies. Keep them coming if you so desire. 
 
As for the sketches of the unusual kit configurations in the Pompeii and Herculeaneum exhibition, I would definately be interested. I think the comentary they would generate here would prove very elucidating! 
 
Thanks again. 
 
Sam Kimpton 
LEG II AVG 
Portland, OR

aitor iriarte · 02-27-2004, 07:15 AM

Crispus, 
Surely Vardulli is your man,more than me!. My sister brought me the exhibition catalogue from Naples. Two bladed weapons are featured, one looking lke a Pompei sword and ohter strange 'Mainz-sword'-looking dagger. Nothing similar to what we understand as a 'pugio'. 
Matt, 
From where did you got that idea of the 'Hispanienses' having only two rings and both being on the same side? 
 
Aitor

02-29-2004, 05:16 PM

There are several hispaniensis scabbards with only 2 rings at the back edge: Delos, first of all, shown in Bishop and Coulston among other places. Volume 8 of JRMES shows others, such as La Osera and probably Alfaro (those are pretty fragmentary). The clincher is that the Spanish predecessors all have 2 rings, and the loops that hold them don't go all the way around the scabbard. The earliest ones are actually Gallic imports complete with the metal loop on the back of the scabbard for the sword belt, but the Spanish have ignored that to add their rings. 
 
At some point the Romans switched to the 4-ring method. My guess is that this started somewhere around Caesar's time, since Augustan examples have 4 rings. We just don't have much evidence from the late 2nd century BC, but the Altar of Domitius Ahenobarbus clearly shows the sword hanging at an angle--exactly what you get with the 2-ring method. With 4 rings, it hangs vertically. 
 
Mind you, there aren't many surviving scabbards at all! But those that are intact enough to interpret seem to be pretty consistent. 
 
Vale, 
 
Matthew/Quintus

aitor iriarte · 02-29-2004, 07:10 PM

Eerrr... yes, the Delos sword.... 
It seems that I've forgotten what I learned on Republican weaponry when I studied the Alfaro hoard (yes, I was the one behind publishing it on JRMES!) 
BTW, Matt, the Montefortino helmet fragments and maybe other items were not lost, they simply were deposited at a different museum. We tried to have access to them, but they seemed to be pretty offended because we have dared to publish what they had rusting on a shelf! Typical 
 
Aitor

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