SHORT SWORDS IN LATE EMPIRE SERVICE

[Anonymous]

Hello Caius/THOM here with a question. I have read that late empire troops had generally speaking carried spatha swords. I have read that the short sword never really faded from service. Could some give me the truth about this there seems to be a lot of different opinions Cheers Thom <p></p><i></i>

[Daniel S Peterson]

Caius,<br>
Vegetius mentions a smaller sword called the Semi-Spatha and they are found on late Roman sites. You can see examples in Mike Bishop's book. It was probably mainly employed when battles were reduced to a tight press and loner weapons impossible to wield. The Germannic scramasax may have been a barbarian respone/imitation of the Semi-spatha idea.<br>
<br>
Despite its description, and presence on late Roman sites, it is practically absent from contemporary sculpture so not widely replicated. Perhaps they were more commonly carried at the back, and therefore not usually depicted.<br>
<br>
Dan <p></p><i></i>

[John M McDermott]

What is the theory on why the Romans abandoned the gladius and the style of fighting that called for thrusts over slashes? <p></p><i></i>

[Goffredo]

Hi Dan,<br>
you mention the possibility that swords might carried on the back. Is there evidence swords were carried on the back?<br>
As I am not a renactor I always wondered if the sword on the back was useful.<br>
<br>
In Conan-like movies, where the hero or heroines don't even use a shield(!), the sword on the back looks cool. But was it actually used? I have never seen a representation (sculpture, painting) of a medieval warrior with a sword on the back. Also because, if anything, while riding a horse, the shield would be on the back too, out of the way. Too much stuff on the back and there is the risk of things getting caught-up. Just thinking.<br>
<br>
Has anyone out there played around with swords to the extent of telling us whether a sword on the back is better, comparable, or worse than a sword on the side?<br>
This sounds a bit like the debate on where to keep a pistol: in a side holster or on the chest. Who would win in a draw.<br>
<br>
Even the japanese samurai didn't wear the sword on the back (like cheap movies show). Was the side draw, up and out like a tennis back-hand stroke, faster? As the swordsman has to reach for the weapon it seem more natural to reach for the side than back above the shoulder. Also in some situation where there is a potential threat I believe it is easier and natural to keep a ready hand near a sword on the side rather than a hand up by the neck. The latter just looks funny!<br>
<br>
By the way, regards fast draws. What about the right side gladius draw? How was it done? I imagine it was intended to minimize extract time: just after throwing the short range pilum you needed to get the gladius point into stabbing position quickly before the opposing lines closed. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=goffredo>goffredo</A> at: 2/25/04 3:49 pm<br></i>

[Anonymous]

The only example I can think of where a 'sword' was worn across the back was the Italian 'cinquedea'. Otherwise, it is always daggers.<br>
<br>
Celer. <p></p><i></i>

[John Maddox Roberts]

"At the back" doesn't have to mean the cheesy movie over-the-shoulder draw. Shorter weapons have frequently been worn at the back of the belt, usually at an oblique angle for a strong-hand draw. That way they are out of the way of the shield and main weaponry but accessible. <p></p><i></i>

[Daniel S Peterson]

Right, John, I meant on the belt, not slung 'Conan fashion' over the shoulder and across the back. I have seen dark age reenactors carry saxes this way and it seems to work well.Off course, a semi-spatha is too small to carry on the back anyway.<br>
<br>
Dan <p></p><i></i>

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

You see short sword in later roman frescos and mosaics as well.

[Robert Vermaat]

That's a REALLY OLD thread you're raising from the dead Byron.

But indeed, we know of the Semispatha.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

It fits with my social life!!

[Paul Elliott]

Read 'somewhere' (helpful I know!) that some of the semi-spatha may have been broken spatha, ground down. Fugere or Bishop & Coulston, probably.

Why the change? Gladius -> spatha. I'd LOVE TO KNOW! One big idea is fashion, recruits in the 2nd century from the Danube and German frontiers like the longsword, 'call that a sword?!' and adopted the cavalry sword when given a chance. The rectangular scutum dropping out of favour simultaneously to cater for more slashing attacks .......????? :?: :? :-? :?: