Vexillum material...cotton?

[Magnus]

I know it was available to the romans, and more expensive...was this ever used in military applications, and could it be used for a Vexillum, or should I just stick to the silk noille i usually use?

[Marcus Mummius]

I know it was available to the romans, and more expensive...was this ever used in military applications, and could it be used for a Vexillum, or should I just stick to the silk noille i usually use?

I believe that the only archaeological find that closely resembles a military vexillum was made out of linen. So heavy linen is what I'd use.

Vale,

[M. Demetrius]

Was the linen found to have been dyed? And (yikes, he's going to ask) what color was it?

[Marcus Mummius]

Was the linen found to have been dyed? And (yikes, he's going to ask) what color was it?

Yes, it was red. The design (victoria standing on a globe) was painted onto it, not embroidered. I don't have a digital picture... I know there is a picture in Feugère's Weapons of the Romans, though.

Vale,

[Peroni]

Here it is..
//i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/peronis/vexillumegypt-1.jpg[/img]

[M. Demetrius]

Well, if it was painted, then any color would be possible. Linen doesn't hold dyes well, so that's really the reason I asked. Paint, now, that's another thing altogether.

Really nice work on that one, too. I'd send a laus to the painter, but --

Thanks, Peroni, for the quick snag of the vex.

[Matthew Amt]

Linen *can* be dyed, and the dye can be colorfast. Linen has a reputation for being difficult to dye, apparently because most mordants available back then worked better on wool. But with the right dye and the right mordant, linen takes color nicely and will hold it. I've seen it done.

I think I'd lean more towards linen than silk noir, since that is a relatively modern form of silk made from damaged coccoons. Roman silk would have been a silk satin, as I understand it. Or possibly something very fine and filmy.

Valete,

Matthew

[M. Demetrius]

I bow to your greater knowledge, Matt. I have never been able to get linen to take vegetable dyes and not fade drastically. I am not a mordant expert, though, and so ought not to make such blanket statements. :lol:

I have found that different dye stocks require different mordants on the same material, if that makes sense. Alum might work with a certain dye and not with another. The organic chemists among us could probably explain why, but suffice it to say, if I have to dye cloth, I'd highly prefer wool. I don't know that wool would be a good choice for a vex, though, because of its intrinsic hairyness, that would make it hard to paint with any detail, unless worsted wool or gabardine and I'm not sure they had that capacity. Wool wouldn't be harder than linen to embroider, though.

[Magnus]

So what would be a good modern dye to try, or should I just buy some red heavy linen? (I already have some white linen here though...)

[Matthew Amt]

Any modern dye like Rit works fine on linen, done it many times myself. Works on horsehair, too. The linen doesn't have to be very heavy, in fact I'd probably go for something finer if there was a choice.

Yes, it's all about the mordants, of which there were many. Alum works great with wool, as I understand it. It's a matter of finding the chemical which will fix the dye to the fibers, and of course flax fibers are made of different stuff than wool fibers. So it might have been a little trickier or more costly to dye linen, but it was certainly possible.

Worsted wool was quite common in ancient times, in fact it might have been the rule. I'm a little hazy now on the details, but it's a matter of how the fibers are combed and spun. Worsted wool is less fuzzy and "itchy" than most modern wools.

Matthew

[M. Demetrius]

Though I've caused the topic to drift off, here's a good definition of worsted wool from About.com :

"Manufactured in Worstead, England, since the eighteenth century, this type of wool is made of long-staple fibers that have been combed to remove unwanted short fibers and make them lie parallel. The fibers are then tightly twisted and woven tightly as well which inhibits creasing. It is popular for suits and trousers."

That doesn't definitively state that the same process wasn't used by people more ancient, of course. The ancients were expert weavers and spinners back as far as anybody knows, even into the Neolithic. Maybe they did use the process to make smooth finished woolens. They just called it something different. And then http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worsted sheds some more light, perhaps, on the process.

No matter, though, linen is the easy pick for a vex fabric, imho. And I'd always still pick pre-dyed over simmering for a day or so with vegetable dyes. Either linen or wool, dyed with RIT, is guaranteed to fade on your underwear. Voice of experience here.