Celt - No such thing !!!

[madoc]

I'd expect you'd be "Iceni" or "trinovantes" or whatever tribal division first and foremost.

The problem with the word "celt" is that it now comes with a whole load of modern baggage.

[Conal]

I'd expect you'd be "Iceni" or "trinovantes" or whatever tribal division first and foremost.

The problem with the word "celt" is that it now comes with a whole load of modern baggage.

The arguements regarding the UK and Ireland can be separated from any modern baggage. The Scots, Irish, Welsh (which we all know is an Anglo-Saxon word for foreigner.. and they obviously did not chose to call themselves that) and Bretons are either Celts or they are not. And its this that is the problem ... its not necessarily a matter of choice ... or is it :roll:

One view is that as there cannnot be a proven DNA line from a recognised Celt of antiquity then one cannot claim Celtic ancestry. That The Irish originated in Spain and that these ancestors did not speak a Celtic language but a variation of Basque means that, regardles of any adoption of another language and another culture, not necessarilt La Tene but not Basque means they should not consider themselves Celtic.

Another is that as one cannot attribute a single overarching Indo European culture via identifyable artifacts secular or relegious sites etc then each identifyable segment ( maybe tribe) should be considered a separate micro culture.

And with regard to language the fact that most of Europe was populated by speakers of related Indo-European languages of which those who might be have identified themselves as Celts were only a small portion.

This means that even though there might have been a commonality of lanuage, artifacts and religious beliefs it cannot be said that all can be given a name.

An alternative is that as the Greeks, who first wrote down the name Keltoi, came into contact with them via Massillia and this may be a Greek rendering of a name they called themselves. J Ceasar stated that peoples in the same area refered to themselves in that way, which could be taken as evidence that at least in southern Gaul there were "real Celts". If, as I have read recently the so called La Tene culture may have eminated from there rather than Switzerland then it could be argued that where ever this culture spread, regardless of ethnic considerations or rergional variations, the peoples could be desciribed as "Celtic" ... so you get Belgic Celts... British Celts ... Cisalpine Celts ... etc etc. It is not a racial term but a description of those who adapted to a change in Indo-Europen culture, which they were a part of via a commonality of lanuage and possibly relegious beliefs. There is no need to assume a big jump from IE to Halstatt to La Tene if there were already social & trading links going back centurys.

Its realy an arguement that absence of proof is proof of absence:?

[Agraes]

Gaelic is a Q-celtic language, apparanted to Celtiberian, when the Brittonic languages (ancient and today modern welsh and breton, and cornish) and Gallic language were P-celtic.

Q-celtic is more archaic and 'Hallstattic'. Certainly the irish culture has partially celtic roots, but also much stuff not indo-european and is definatly not that much 'Latenian'.

Maybe it can be viewed like parts of the hellenistic world where greek culture merged with other cultures to developp an unique phenomenon?

[Conal]

Benjamin

I agree that Irish/Gaelic has loan words from earlier languages and that Q Celtic is more archaic than P Celtic. This could just mean that there was a resistance to new forms of Celtic coming from central Europe and that they were never fully "La Tene"... but that does not make them any less Celtic than those in Gaul.

In the UK those in the North East still use a lot of Norse words in their language but culturaly they are Bristish not Scandinavian:?

I am curretly on the trail of the Brigantes as they are noted as the only Tribe with lands in both England and Ireland. There are also mentions of Brigantii in the Austrian Alps and also in Spain. If these are linked that would be very intersting hock:

[Agraes]

There is also Menapi mentionned by Ptolemy in Ireland.


From what I have been told by our 'gaelic specialist' on Arthurian: TW (I agree that is not face value but there is at least interesting guess!), there were british, gallic and belgian 'celts' settled among the Gaels in Ireland, they were called crodda, a variant of the word cruithne the name given to the Picts by the Irishmen. Those crodda kept for a while their latenian culture (for exemple dressing in pants and shirts when Gaels wore the lèine) and their originality. They were particulary prominants in several parts of Ireland, such as Laigin/Leinster which had lot of contacts with Britain and may have been at some points a kingdom extended on both shores of the irish sea, such as Dal Riada in the North, or Dumnonia in Devon/Cornwall and northern Brittany.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, I like the idea of the influence of a group from around the Greek city of Massalia. I can personally see an influence in the blades of the Bronze age from Greece to Scotland, unless the blades I saw were actually of mainland origin....but there was obviously a great deal of interchange of ideas and artifacts, with a theme of sorts that links them all, even the peoples not of 'keltoi' origin.....

[authun]

I am curretly on the trail of the Brigantes as they are noted as the only Tribe with lands in both England and Ireland. There are also mentions of Brigantii in the Austrian Alps and also in Spain. If these are linked that would be very intersting hock:

It's from a proto indo european root which became *bher(g)h in centum languages, berg in germanic and briga in gallic. Thus Brigantes is probably something like dwellers in the hills.

The Brigantes in northern britain have a good deal of continuity with the bronze age whereas the Parisii and/or the Arras culture in East Yorkshire is a new development in the 5th cent BC and has many parallels on the continent.

best
Harry Amphlett

[Conal]

I am curretly on the trail of the Brigantes as they are noted as the only Tribe with lands in both England and Ireland. There are also mentions of Brigantii in the Austrian Alps and also in Spain. If these are linked that would be very intersting hock:

It's from a proto indo european root which became *bher(g)h in centum languages, berg in germanic and briga in gallic. Thus Brigantes is probably something like dwellers in the hills.

The Brigantes in northern britain have a good deal of continuity with the bronze age whereas the Parisii and/or the Arras culture in East Yorkshire is a new development in the 5th cent BC and has many parallels on the continent.

best
Harry Amphlett

I doubt very much that a link can be found as " hill dwellers" could easily crop up in different areas ( no register of tribal names to debar it :roll: )

Interesting that the Pennines and Appenines are both hilly

[authun]

I doubt very much that a link can be found as " hill dwellers" could easily crop up in different areas ( no register of tribal names to debar it)

There are a great number of 'brig' or 'briga' names throughout the celtic speaking world: Deobriga, Arvobriga, Colubriga etc. including Brigh in Tyrone from Brioch and meaning 'Hilly Place' according to Mills. For a complete list of securely identified names, see Volume 12 of the Celtic Studies Publications, An Atlas for Celtic Studies - Archaeology and Names in Ancient Europe and Early Medieval Ireland, Britain and Brittany.

Brig(a) placenames are often combined with another placename, Talabriga; an adjective, Mirobriga or a personal name, Flaviobriga. Sometimes the initial element is clearly celtic too, such as in Segobriga. In other cases you may get a roman anthropronym, such as in Augustobriga.

PIE *bher(g)h has a number of derivatives in centum languages. The first meaning is from the PIE meaning, hill, which is still retained. A fortified place is a secondary meaning, eg. germanic burg. A tertiary meaning for an urban place or population is derived in turn through germanic and exists in several languages as bourgeois, burgués, etc.

Remember that the term Brigantes is an etic term for a number of groups. We don't know the emic names for all of them. As such, hill dwellers is a better fit than dwellers of the hill forts, as this would not distinguish them from other hill forts and any etymology based on an urban nature is too early for, as explained above, this is a later germanic mediation.

best
Harry Amphlett

[Aethelfrith]

Benjamin

I agree that Irish/Gaelic has loan words from earlier languages and that Q Celtic is more archaic than P Celtic. This could just mean that there was a resistance to new forms of Celtic coming from central Europe and that they were never fully "La Tene"... but that does not make them any less Celtic than those in Gaul.

In the UK those in the North East still use a lot of Norse words in their language but culturaly they are Bristish not Scandinavian:?

No, they are Northumbrian English, the British are the Welsh; the term was hijacked by Imperialists and used for all the groups in the British isles. :wink: I don't agree with the use of 'British' to describe the culture of the English (which is distinct from Welsh, Gaelic etc) and neither to many Northumbrians I know.

The Norse words in Northumbrian dialects (including Geordie, Pitmatic and Mackam) are merely loan words; the Northumbrian dialects are closer to English than most other English dialects. Actually, Northumberland has less Norse cultural traits than the Hebrides, however, Yorkshire was due to the fact that it was held by the Norse for many years.

[petrinus]

wouldnt the fact the druids swept a pretty broad region attribute some religious credit to the case in identifying a celt outside of linguistics and lands, a pretty important part of their "culture" i think and one that is easy to identify. though im to understand a later advent, their earlier religion being more shamanic from the texts ive read. none the less it came to pass that druids influenced their people far and wide, stonehenge though not built by the druids was an important ritual site to them and i think i remembr reading that druids from different tribes traveled there and to other "holy" sites. a cultural religious exchange was sure to take place and intermingle cultural identifiers between tribes, no?

[Conal]

No, they are Northumbrian English, the British are the Welsh

So you are able to prove that all those residing in Northumbria are decendents of Angles?

[authun]

So you are able to prove that all those residing in Northumbria are decendents of Angles?

According to Capelli's Table S1. Proportion of the Estimated Continental Introgression into the Various Populations, Morpeth in Northumbria has a 57.1% component in the modern population which matches those found in North Germany/Denmark.

best
Harry Amphlett

[Conal]

Can there be a differenciation between arrivals in 5th & 10th Century?

What are the other 47% ?

[PMBardunias]

wouldnt the fact the druids swept a pretty broad region attribute some religious credit to the case in identifying a celt outside of linguistics and lands, a pretty important part of their "culture" i think and one that is easy to identify.

Doesn't this criteria lead to all of Christian Europe and the Americas, as well as the whole Muslim world, being an Israeli tribe?