Oldest samples of writing in Macedonia

[Hoplitesmores]

Oldest samples of writing in Macedonia prooves Macedonians wrote and spoke Greek!!!The Mycenaean graves of Spather/S:t Demetrious, Pieria were so far the oldest undeniable trace of Hellenic presence in the area, dating back to the 13th century BC.
The oldest piece of black & white pottery founded in Aiani, Macedonia, Greece.

However, new excavations in the city of Aiani, brought to light the oldest piece of Greek pottery ever found. Some of the pottery dates back to the 14th century BC.

Amongst the pottery, some of the oldest samples of writting were found.

Also archaic era names inscribed like: Πλεόνα and Θέμιδα.

According to the video of the documentary, it is clear that these inscriptions prove that the society of Macedonia, spoke and wrote in Greek.

concise.britannica.com/ebc/art-84137/Ancient-artifacts-that-have-been-discovered-in-Aiani-prove-that

[Hoplitesmores]

Youtubed it show everyone can see it.Link it anywhere with this

[url:13tc4si3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt6-fBIR2rM[/url]

[Comerus Gallus]

I dont have any doubt...

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Note that the sound track is one of the few ancient songs that have survived and it is palayed with reconstructions of ancient instrauments. Now,how sure we can be that this was what it sounded like,well,it's another matter. Sorry for the OT.
Khairete
Gannis

[Komanos]

Are you sure you're reporting that correctly? As I understood the report, there's a sample of black-and-white pottery from the 14th century, dated through Mykenaian artifacts. Then, the Pleona inscription comes from the Archaic period, which could be as late as the 6th century, and which few if any would extend into the "Dark Age" or earlier, so if their terminology is accurate, the Pleona inscription is from the 8th to 6th century, not from the 14th. Similarly, the Themida inscription is from the 5th century. Those are not then, among the oldest samples of writing ever found.

[Hoplitesmores]

The narrator is talking on many periods i hear she says 13th .14th and then mentions something else.I ll have to text it exactly.

[Hoplitesmores]

In the necropolis tens of vases have been discovered .These are the Macedonian black and white pottery which was made and used by the tribes of NW Greece.The

Macedonians were part of this Group.The ?pottery? of Aiani came from the local workshops and is the oldest piece of black and white pottery discovered so far, it was found

at ?mysian? shells and can therefore certainly be dated from the 14th century bc.Aiani has given us some of the oldest samples of writing in Macedonia.On small pieces of

pottery ?were let alike? inscriptions .We can also make out the name of the dead person Pleona on an archaic mausoleum ?filler?. The name of the godess or mortal

Themida is carved on the base of a clasical jar.While from the 5th century bc a bill has survived.An inhabitant of ?Elimniote? carved it in Decimals on piece of pottery.It is

clear that these early inscriptions found in Aiani prove that the ancient macedonian hellenistic socitey spoke and wrote in Greek.The remains at Aiani were a major discovery

in the region of upper Macedonia because there was very little written information about it and what there was was indirect.The discoveries which have been made up to now

have given us a new dimension to the historical face of hellenism in this area overturning once and for all the commonly accepted belief that upper macedonia was both

socially and cultulary isolated from the rest of Ancient Greece.On the contrary by the 6 th century bc hellenism in upper macedonia was already at a high economic artistic

and cultural level .The inhabitants of this area lived in well planned cities and not in nomadic groups depending on farming and animal husbandry.

This must be part of a bigger narration or documentary

[Kallimachos]

Very interesting, never had a doubt :-) ) Thanks for sharing Themistoklis.

[Jona Lendering]

Unfortunately, the file linked to does not open in my rather old browser. Still, I would like to refer to a conversation I used to have with the late professor Ruijgh, a linguist who was specialised in Mycenaean and Archaic Greek. About five years ago, he said that there was scientific consensus that the Macedonians spoke a Northwestern Greek dialect PLUS a language of their own. In other words, they were bilingual. Something similar can be read in the latest edition of the Oxford Classical Dictionary, which also accepts that the Macedonians were linguistically close to the Greeks.

If this is indeed the communis opinio among linguists, I do not really see what is new.

[Urselius]

I thought it was well attested that the Macedonians spoke a rather barbarous Greek patois; it was Greek but not identical to that of their southern neighbours. The Athenians denigrated the Macedonians as "Mixobarbaroi" and for mud to stick it had to have some basis in fact.

[Hoplitesmores]

The Athenians were pretty discriminatory and called any Greek they didn like barbarian as it suited them. Damn racists

[hoplite14gr]

Most of our views from the ancient world come through the likes and dislikes of Athenian gentlemen and most scholars sometimes follow them blindly.

You know that in the remote villages of the island of Kos (part of the doric Exapolis in ancient times )even modern Greeks have trouble with the dialect but linguistic analysis proved it to be the closest Greek dialect to the ancient Doric dialect. Pretty much like the villages of Northern Ipeiros.

Alexandrian scholars suck :evil:

Kind regards

[geala]

I don't understand the intention of the discussion. What is new? That the Macedons were Greek people with a Greek dialect was and is imho leading opinion among the scolars. Maybe they had also some connections with the Illyrians or the Epirotes (like Thukydides said).

That was not of great interest for the Greek poleis. It was anyway often very difficult to set apart the Greeks and the Greeks. In the Persian war of 480 BC for example more Greeks were with the Persian king than with the Greek defenders.

For the poleis the Macedons were foreign invaders wether they spoke a kind of Greek or not. People like Isokrates were not able to see the fact that the Macedons were a far greater danger to Greek freedom (which meant that the citizens -or aristocrats or local tyrants- ruled the polis themselves and were able to fight against other people, esp. other Greeks) than the Persians for example. Clear looking people like Demosthenes were. And even in the few years of Macedonian rule over nearly all the (other) Greek states a clear distinction was made culturally between the Macedons and the other Hellenes.

[Jona Lendering]

That the Macedons were Greek people with a Greek dialect was and is imho leading opinion among the scolars.

Perhaps that's one move too swift. Greek-speaking, almost certainly, at least part of the time; but "Greek people" is perhaps exaggerated. Flemish people speak Dutch, but are not Dutchmen.

A related point is that of ethnogenesis. The Greek ethnicity is, grosso modo, Xerxes' main legacy: the Greeks had, until then, shared a language, several gods and cults, and Homer. Macedon did not belong to this, and the kingdom found its unity as a satrapy. It took Alexander the Philhellene a lot of diplomacy to keep the agglomerate that was his kingdom together after his masters had left Europe; in the end, he succeeded by stressing his Greek descent, which helped him to find allies in the south.

If this reading of the events is correct, the Macedonian and Greek ethnicities, although originally closely related, defined themselves against each other (cf. the Flemish, who -when you ask them who they are- will always start with the remark that they are not Dutch). Visionary leaders like Philip II were able to look across this border, but the antipathy appears to have been real.

However this may be, ethnicity is an extremely complex subject, and the lack of evidence does not make it easier. The inscription mentioned in the first post of this thread helps us corroborate that Macedonians and Greeks could understand each other, at least under certain circumstances.

[geala]

The Macedonians spoke a Dorian dialect. This is at least the best reconstruction that we have. So for me they were Greeks. Genetic analyses are not known to me and would be very difficult, or, better, without meaning in the human melting pot of that area.

Another question is wether they were accepted by the Greeks of the southern poleis as fellow Greeks. More or less, often less. That was the fate not only for Macedon, but also for Epeiros and even Thessaly.