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aitor iriarte · 02-08-2004, 06:06 PM

Many thanks, Flavius, 
I hope that we haven't transgressed any (more) legal disposition(s)! 
By the way, Graham has told me that it was Prof. D'Amato who sent him (and us) the photo! 
 
Aitor

TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS · 02-09-2004, 11:13 AM

Quote:<hr>Only an attentive comparison of classical art and written sources, allied with archaeology wherever possible, can give us an exact dimension of the Roman World. I advise everyone to abandon modern concepts and to look at the Roman pictorial sources as a true representation of reality. Roman paintings, mosaics and sculptures provide us with a snapshot of the past. Unfortunately we too often presume to know more than the people who lived 2000 years ago and who saw these soldiers for themselves.<hr> 
 
Absolutely correct..., or not so correct? 
That could be an illusory point of view. Take for example the WWII and some elusive german Luftwaffe aircraft history: till 30-40 years ago, Mr. William Green was the H.R. Robinson of the german (and not only) fighter aircraft, he published some "definitive" books with lot of photos and "very" well detailed drawings. Take for example the Messerschmitt Bf 109 "K" the last variant series. Mr. Green described it in an absolutely wrong way. Any enthusiast and researcher in the world took his information as good. Museums, historicians and plastic models companies took all that wrong stuff as "good"... 
 
Just about 15-20 years ago new discovered german and allied veterans personal photos and documents allowed to correct the mistake. I like to mention that everything probably derived from the Germans behaviour during and lately in the war: they deliberately confused the most of the infos. So, if we had to judge from the official german sources (photos too!), known about 40 years ago, we could not know how a 109 K-4 really was and we had to take as good that the K looked exactly like an elder G-6 or G-10. 
 
And we have the photos since the "modern" times! 
 
But in the 2304 0r 2504, who will can convince a child (or an adult...) that between these two german fighter aircraft: 
 
 
 
Messerschmitt Bf 109 E-7 
 
<img src="http://users.libero.it/sabsab/titus/bf109e.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
 
Messerschmitt P.1101 
 
 
<img src="http://users.libero.it/sabsab/titus/p1100-3.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
 
<img src="http://users.libero.it/sabsab/titus/p1100-4.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
 
<img src="http://users.libero.it/sabsab/titus/p1100-22.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
 
are only 5 (!) years of technology? 
Their photos? I'm not sure, seen for example that the Americans made again the Messerschmitt P.1101 after the war, confusing the future historicians: 
 
 
<img src="http://users.libero.it/sabsab/titus/p1100-32.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
 
So, even with loads of just 60 years ago material, it's really difficult to be asolutely stuck to any of the interpretations. 
"In my opinion" Prof. D'Amato's dares too much trusting so the Traian's column details and taking them as "snapshots" of the past: of course it's a very hard matter with many parties. 
 
2000 years ago, no photos, no men like Leonardo loving to represent any details of the things, maybe no interest for details at all. We must to keep in mind we have just a general view of the roman era, great as it was... Romans did not care of such "details" as lorica fittings shape, etc., we do: someone has to do the dirty job... 
 
Valete, 
Titus Sabatinus Aquilius

aitor iriarte · 02-11-2004, 09:06 AM

Avete, 
Dr. D'Amato has asked me to post this: 
 
quote: you;d be hard pressed to convince me that the Sarmatians and their horses went into battle wearing scale armour body stockings. 
 
In Sarmatian graves from Catalka remains of trousers have been found with Lamellae sewn onto them! See also the article in Journal of Roman Military Equipment for other details about Sarmatian cataphracts. 
 
Raffaele d'Amato

02-11-2004, 10:33 AM

As far as I know it's one grave from Catalka, not "graves", and it may not be a Sarmatian grave: it's in Roman Thrace and contains both Roman and Sarmatian items. The armoured "trousers" aren't really "lamellae", but long iron strips the length of the shin and the thigh, with a mediaeval-looking knee-cop in between, and bronze hinges, and some sort of cloth lining. It is heavily corroded and I am not sure how reliable the published reconstruction is. 
 
I think it's also open to debate, given the findspot and the presence of for instance a Roman masked cavalry helmet in the same grave, whether it is Sarmatian or early Roman catafract gear....

Daniel S Peterson · 02-11-2004, 05:33 PM

I would agree that the possibility exists that some cataphracts may have had scale covered legs, and even their horses. It was probably not common, and it certainly would not have been so skin tight, but its existence could have inspired the art. Consider how meticulously crafted the captured spoila on the column base is executed. These items were unquestionably copied from real captured booty. 
 
We know Persian cavalry wore scale 'chaps' so trousers are only a small step further. As for the horses, it is also a fact that the Holy Roman Emperor Maximillian had a set of armor made in the German "Gothic" style for a horse, circa 1485, in which each leg was fully encased in plate, as completely as a man's leg! This was a 'war' armor intended for actual combat. 
Fabric legs with sewn on scales are child's play compared to this, and easily produced by even barbarians. 
 
Incidentally, the Domus Aurea armor does bear a resemblance to the armor depicted on Trajan's column. Imagine all of the iron plates edged in brass as in the style of a a contemporary iron helmet, only wider. We now know some cuirasses has cupric alloy edgings. Perhaps this style was always reserved for praetorians, and this was the only style familiar with the master sculptor, who may have never left Rome. 
Dan

Gregg · 02-12-2004, 07:21 PM

I certainly wouldnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t argue against the existence of scale armor chaps (and chaps I believe are much more likely than scale trousers, based on what little evidence I know of) among armored steppe horsemen. I've read of two late 5th century BC scale finds from Scythian graves in the North Ukraine reconstructed by archeologists as chaps (keeping in mind that such heavy armor protection even among the Scythian nobility was not very common), but among the Scythians they seem to have been discarded in favor of modified Greek infantry greaves soon after. A terracotta tile from Babylon depicting an armored Parthian horseman may also show scale chaps of this type, and they might be depicted on the Tang-i Sarvak relief (rock 3), though in both cases any number of interpretations seem possible. 
 
However, any supporting evidence for the use by the Sarmatians of the type of heavy armor depicted on Trajan's Column is almost non-existent. The numerous surviving depictions of Sarmatian warriors suggest a pretty standard panoply among the armored elite, which seemed to have consisted of a short-sleeved, thigh-length scale (later sometimes mail) corselet and a domed helmet. Really not much different than the average Roman auxiliary horseman. There is no evidence for leg armor at all. Even the use of horse armor seems to have been very rare. In fact, there are only two surviving depictions of Sarmatian horse armor, one Bosporan and the other Roman (Trajan's Column). The only description of Sarmatian horse armor comes from Valerius Flaccus, writing in the 1st century AD, though he probably never saw Sarmatian horsemen himself. Arrian, who certainly did, claimed that the horses of the Alans were unarmored. Other authors give the impression that the Sarmatians were overall rather lightly armored, which seems to be confirmed by archeology. As I see the evidence, Sarmatian military equipment had been under strong Parthian influence since at least the beginning of the 1st century AD (as seen in the introduction of the armored lancer), so when horse armor was used at all it was probably very similar to some Parthian types (probably almost identical to the Dura Europas bards). Heliodorus describes early Sassanian cataphracts (which were probably identical to late Parthian cataphracts) as having "knemides," which seem to have been a padded or quilted protection for the horse's legs, but I know of no other description or depiction of this type of protection among other ancient armored horsemen, and the use of even this simple type by the Sarmatians seems very unlikely. 
 
At the risk of sounding pedantic (Ã¢â‚¬Å“Too late!Ã¢â‚¬Â

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