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Question about the Gutmann italic H iron helmet
#16
I'm convinced it's for a neck/chin strap. Take a look at this photo of Celer wearing it: http://www.legionsix.org/julianhelmetright.jpg

The traditional manner of ties coming from a ring beneath the neck guard just looks like it wouldn't work. Can you imagine putting this thing on and fiddling around underneath that thing trying to find the thongs at the back of the neck guard? However, if the straps came from the positions where the slots are, it's easy, especially if the straps are fixed somehow. In fact, the straps could have slits themselves at their ends - they feed and loop through themselves to create a secure yet flexible fastening system, which can be pulled tight to create excellent stability. Pretty necessary if you wear that beast.

I think it's pretty ingenious, if so. The strap leathers would also act as some padding against the brass vertical. The lower feed also takes the straps below the ears if they then fed into rings on the cheek pieces, were the jaw is, and then under the chin to rings on the opposite cheek piece at the chin, which is similar to how the Italic D works.

That's my latest theory :wink:
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#17
That is a possibility, but i have a few reservations about the padding ability of the straps! Smile i would want a little more for sure.

As the deepeeka has only rings to attach the tie straps, it reqires you to fasten one to each ring, then pass them under your chin to the oposite cheekpiece. Un less you use really long leather ties.

It wouldn't be too bad a concept, as I used a similar idea for my face helm, just using round leather cord. A pull to tighten system instead of fiddling with knots? I take it that is what you are meaning?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#18
I'd ignore the Deepeeka for now. What seems to be the case from this photo is that tie rings weren't on the helmet's neck guard: http://www.legionsix.org/neiderfront.jpg

So, if that's the case, how was the helmet secured? The obvious apparatus is the brass extension. The reason I say straps instead of a chord is simply down to the shape of the slots - why not just holes?

The straps acting as padding is just an idea. An arming cap would have done just as well.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#19
Yes you know I had always seen the plate and the holes, but never noticed the lack of tie rings, and with no cheek pieces, who knows what the fasten points were like Smile
I think i'm convinced now...and glad you like the idea of the arming cap........ Tongue
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#20
Assuming that Tarbicus is correct and the slots are to accomodate some form of strapping then it remains for someone to prove that this is a practical answer. I wont have time to even look at doing any alterations until next year but would cheefully ask if anyone else would have a go.


Theres a couple of points I'd like to make though, the first is that this arrangement (again assuming the strapping solution), while unique amongst helmet finds, was so unlikely to be the only helmet in history with this configuration AND survive, means there was probably some others which also were made this way or a method of doing things that would have been established by the time this was made. Most will have been lost forever,so we will be left with those that we already know,were we to look for the signs would we find it on existing helmets?, possibly just the rivets, or a lack of rings where they should be present, or an arrangement of fixing that has been assumed as standard but may actually be something similar to this one,or a pattern of corrosion or marks left by missing pieces.
This is pure speculation on my part but it has piqued my interest and I feel like keeping my eye out for some of these detail should I ever come across them.
I know the cheekplates on the helmet I own are conjectural ( where did the reference come from? )but I'd be very interested to see suggestions of strapmounts here too. Would there be any individual cheekplate finds that would help here? Would there be any evidence in art?

Just another note,I have seen a similar bracket attached to a helmet,though not in this way, they are on gladiator helmets and used to secure the visor though I think they also run all the way around the inside of the skull, not having easy access to any of these ,again this is pure speculation and suggested as a way to look at other contemproray object with similar function.
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#21
I just realised the possibility of the slots being for strap/thong to hold the helmet in place is stronger. The Italic D, which bears more than a passing resemblance, is secured by tie rings, but the important thing is there are two either side of the base of the skull on the neck guard, not a single one at the very back edge. This matches the Guttmann in function, more or less. The similarities are stronger than I previously thought. Click the link to see what I'm talking about.

[url:3ixsc76x]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/images/stories/HelmetDB/PlaceNameV-Z/WormsImpItalD-9.jpg[/url]
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#22
....I think you are almost certainly right, Jim...and the reason for the change is all too obviously the increasing size of the neckguard, which would lead to the 'traditional' method being fairly insecure, and easy to 'tip', because of the long 'base' from rim to chin.
The 'new' method offers a snug, close to the skull fit, and achieves a similar fastening to the old Montefortino's, with their negligible neck guards.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#23
Great deduction Jim! It is pretty clear now..... Smile
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#24
Yep - that's it all right! The comparison with the Italic is very aposite. I've often wondered how this series of helmets was properly secured on the head with those increasingly enormous neck-guards sticking out the back. I think you have deduced it correctly!

I think that we should add this as a note to the entry in the helmets database. It's your idea, Jim - would you care to frame it?

Caratacus
(Mike T.)
visne scire quod credam? credo orbes volantes exstare.
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