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Mail during the empire
#16
Avete!<br>
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Flavius Crispus:<br>
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www.erikdschmid.com/TMRS_1.htm <p>LEG IX HSPA - COH III EXPG - CEN I HIB<br>
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- FIDELITAS - - VIRTUS - - MAGNANIMITAS - </p><i></i>
Adam MacDonald

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org">www.legio-ix-hispana.org
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#17
Matt: <em>...A few lorica plates show a layered effect, being harder on the outside and softer on the inside. So the metallurgy was quite sophisticated. They knew what they could do with various ores treated in particular ways to get the metal they needed.</em><br>
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The layered effect on a plate may have been quite acidental because that is what will happen when hammer a billet into a plate. To what extent the effect was appreciated by the ancients, we will probably never know. <p></p><i></i>
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#18
<em>The layered effect on a plate may have been quite acidental because that is what will happen when hammer a billet into a plate. To what extent the effect was appreciated by the ancients, we will probably never know.</em><br>
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Analysis shows that it is <em>deliberate</em> and observable on pieces from every site so far examined (the preliminary analyses of the Vindolanda examples were published in Arma<br>
- www.mcbishop.co.uk/arma.htm#10 ).<br>
<br>
Mike Bishop <p></p><i></i>
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles

Blogging, tweeting, and mapping Hadrian\'s Wall... because it\'s there
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#19
Well, yet again my ignorance regarding the lorica segmentata shines brightly. I have no excuse in this case, as I own that issue of Arma. I don’t remember where I got the idea that segmentata plates were left “softâ€Â
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#20
You may have read about the Romans deliberately using soft plates in Bishop, M.C., & Coulston, J.C.N., Roman Military Equipment from the Punic Wars to the Fall of Rome. B.T. Batsford Ltd, London, 1993.<br>
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I haven't access to this book atm but this site seems to cite from it.<br>
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rubens.anu.edu.au/student...ented.html<br>
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"Plates were made by hammer work, and Bishop and Coulston (1993: 190) note that an analysis of surviving fragments of iron plates of the lorica segmentata type shows that they had not been hardened in any way, although the Romans are known to have been aware of this technique. They also suggest that Roman armourers deliberately produced 'soft' armour that could absorb the energy/force of a blow as it crumpled. This softness allowed the metal to deform extensively, absorbing the impact of weapons and denying them the resistance needed to penetrate effectively." <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=danielraymondhoward>Daniel Raymond Howard</A> at: 1/30/04 11:03 pm<br></i>
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#21
Yeah, in the back of my mind I sort of felt the memory was from a reputable source, but I just couldn't remember what it was. This is what I get for posting without consulting my sources first....<br>
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Gregg <p></p><i></i>
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#22
<em>And I do have my doubts about the existence of “parade armorâ€Â
You know my method. It is founded upon the observance of trifles

Blogging, tweeting, and mapping Hadrian\'s Wall... because it\'s there
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#23
"And I do have my doubts about the existence of “parade armorâ€Â
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#24
[deleted] <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=danielraymondhoward>Daniel Raymond Howard</A> at: 1/31/04 11:05 pm<br></i>
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#25
Avete!<br>
Well, centurions and other officers could certainly afford extra parade armor. In fact, it really looks like conspicuous consumption is one of the big aspects of reaching that status. Pliny the Younger donated 40,000 sesterces to one of his clients who had just received a commission as a centurion, to cover his expenses for armor and gear. That's quite a wad of cash! And an officer would have his own baggage animals and carts, and slaves to take care of the stuff. So no problem there.<br>
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Granted, it doesn't seem likely that many grunts would be hauling duplicate kit on campaign, but that doesn't mean that a few couldn't have some nicer bits that they'd leave in barracks.<br>
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Does anyone have an accurate translation of the passage in Josephus that describes the pay-day parade outside Jerusalem? There is a reference to the soldiers removing the covers from their armor, or removing armor from the cases, something like that. I've seen a couple different versions with significantly different interpretations. Could be anything from a cover for the helmet to a full parade kit in a special box! Doesn't imply that ALL the soldiers had it, mind you!<br>
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My own feelings about "parade armor" include some backlash inspired by authors that interpret ANY piece of metal armor as "ceremonial"! (Mostly earlier stuff, like Bronze Age.) Sure, there are pieces out there from various times or places that really don't seem to be designed for battle, but I just wish I knew more about the physics of the materials and weapons, etc.<br>
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I also have a hard time with seeing any piece of armor described as "worthless" or "worse than useless" as protection. Huh? Worse than bare skin? Just seems odd, but like I said, the physics may be much more complicated and surprising than I know.<br>
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So who's got that Josephus?<br>
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Valete,<br>
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Matthew <p></p><i></i>
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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#26
May I second that request for clarification on the Josephus quote? My translation (Williamson) reads that the soldiers 'removed their armour from its protective coverings' - I did consider that possibly some sort of tunic might have been worn over the armour, rather as the Crusaders took to covering their mail while in the same region (to protect against the heat?). The quote does imply that this was standard practice, whatever it refers to! <p></p><i></i>
Nathan Ross
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#27
The Crusaders may have worn a tunic over their mail to be better protected from arrows, a tactic used by the early Arabs against the Sassanid Persian horse-archers. I have no idea if the Romans ever used that same form of protection though.<br>
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Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#28
A look at some of the first century tombstones from the Rhineland reveals that a number appear to be wearing a close fitting garment over their mail, with the sculptured mail appearing only as a band along the bottom of the garment and apparently overlapped by it.<br>
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Crispvs <p></p><i></i>
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#29
Quote:The Crusaders may have worn a tunic over their mail to be better protected from arrows, a tactic used by the early Arabs against the Sassanid Persian horse-archers. I have no idea if the Romans ever used that same form of protection though.
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The Japanese used the "horo," a triangular piece of cloth attached to the back that billowed outlike a sail when on horseback. It was effective at deflecting arrows fired at the back. However if the cloth was in contact with the body it is much less effective.<br>
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Could you point me to an online source about the arab use of cloth to resist Sassanid arrows? I'd like to read more about this tactic. <p></p><i></i>
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