Teutoburg forest?

[Marcus Cassius LegioXIV]

I'm curious, I have always heard that every Roman in Varus's army was killed in the battle, but I've heard that a Cavalry unit escaped and maybe even some infantry broke through and got away. Has anybody heard of this too? Also, what about Romans taken as slaves then recaptured in later campaigns in Germany? I thought I heard about that too. Just thought I'd ask. Thanks

[Paullus Scipio]

Well, there were certainly survivors, as you might expect, because all four sources ultimately draw on survivors accounts. One source refers to the cavalry deserting the PBI (poor bloody infantry), but then, with some relish describes how they didn't make it! ( Obviously a Grunt! )...that some escaped and fought their wat through to a fort is also almost certain.....As you say others were ransomed or recaptured over the next 30 years or so.....

For a full account, including the sources, by Jona Lendering ( a member here) on his Livius site go here:-

www.livius.org/te-tg/teutoburg/teutoburg01.htm

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The ones who were captures and returned were posted off to nondescript retirement, I think I read somewhere..can't be sure if it was in the 2 books I read on the subject or on here somewhere...... :oops:

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

In Tacitus i read a story about an expedition against the CHATTI where survivors (old aged!!) of Varus' Legions were rescued after the battle was won, and apparently they were in slavery... this happened during the reign of Tiberius if i am correct...

M.VIB.M.

[Ironhand]

I think that was in Rambo 2 right?

It isn't really surprising that Romans were sold into slavery, any Roman captives would have probably met the same fate so its not exactly an example of barbarism. Finding some Roman slaves is definately possible though I doubt many of them would have been recovered. They could have hit some of the wealthier estates and probably recovered quite a few, but that doesn't account for the fact the slaves wouldn't have been kept too close together and many would have been sold. My intellectual guess would be that the Roman captives would have been split up as much as possible to make it easier to prevent escaping and revolt. It does makes a stirring tale and no doubt did well to help recover lost pride. Its possible the story would have been told the same if they had recovered one captive slave, but I could be wrong.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Ill look the passage up for you so you can read for yourself...

M.VIB.M.

as Darth Vader said it.... I find your lack of faith disturbing... LOL

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yes it was possiibly Tacitus where I read that! As I said, they were not really paraded through Rome in triumph on their return...hidden away in shame as losers was the impression I got! :roll:

[Paullus Scipio]

Hello ? Guys?
.....no need for all the speculation....all is revealed on the Livius site I linked to, including all four sources and an analysis of their reliability, when written etc! D

...Just go and look...... :wink:

[Marcus Cassius LegioXIV]

Thank you very much for the info! I love the internet!

[Robert Vermaat]

.. but that doesn't account for the fact the slaves wouldn't have been kept too close together and many would have been sold. My intellectual guess would be that the Roman captives would have been split up as much as possible to make it easier to prevent escaping and revolt. .

Fact? :wink:

[Aetius Helvius Merula]

As I recall, there were several survivors according to Tacitus, that led Germanicus to the site of the battle. They showed him where and what, and dialed him into the sacrificial groves so he could give proper rites to the remains of the fallen Romans. But how he came across them, I don't recall.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Quiegie board? :lol:

[Ironhand]

Vortigern, not really fact, but more based off later Germanic slave treatment combined with a bit of common sense. If you put too many Roman slaves together there is more of a chance for problems to arise even if they are in a foreign land. Unless there was an extreme need for extra slaves within the tribe its not likely they kept them all or even a majority. Slaves = big profit as spoils of war.

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Derek,

Vortigern, not really fact, but more based off later Germanic slave treatment

Interesting! Could you show me to some sources please?

combined with a bit of common sense.

Ah. Dangerous, that. ´Comon sense´ often stands in the way of real sources. :wink:

If you put too many Roman slaves together there is more of a chance for problems to arise even if they are in a foreign land.

That sounds reasonable, but so does my RTW game. In fact we would rather sooner expect that prisoners of war were divided among the various commanders as loot, since that, too, was common practise (Gregory of Tours about Clovis).

[Ironhand]

Heres not a bad source
http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/thralls.shtml

Its later day information, but Germanic social stratification was not very different in the early days and it would be weird to think having slaves later and pretty much all cultures having slaves at that time that their treatment was too much different. You need a certain amount of slaves just to be functional unless one was to say that they were more reliant on slaves later on, but considering a lot of Celtic groups had that level of slave involvement around the same time period we are talking about I would be surprised if that was true. A lot of differences with Celtic groups, but a lot of social similarities. They would have to be somewhat up to stock on slaves and it is reasonable to believe that if they captured a huge number of slaves most would be sold so they could go to where people needed them i.e. business 101 you have to put the stock where the market is. It is inefficient to have excess slaves where they are not needed and at that time there was hardly a prison like system in place. If they truly were in several places where you could recover most of them, that would tell me that most likely there were not many captives. Then again, knowing the value of slaves I find this unlikely and figure it is one of the many cases of Roman bending of the truth in storytelling. Not really unusual especially considering that stain on Roman pride and it probably helped the Roman ego a lot hearing a harrowing tale of veterans avenging the tragedy and recovering those who were thought fallen. Its an almost epic tale though if it happened I would make an unfounded guess (most common sense :oops: :wink: ) and say it was most likely a small raid that recovered a few captured slaves in the process. If true that doesn't make it any less of a great story, maybe even more so.

I know its probably not the best source by itself, but it would take me a little while longer to cite other historical sources. I'm not on your level yet Vortigern in that I'm good at learning and remembering, but I'm not so good at bookmarking with great accuracy my sources. Same thing with me and the bible, I remember the general idea and most specifics of most everything, but am not so good with which verse. Its something I need to work on. Probably comes from my upbringing where I was mostly a loner so I tend to think of information for my own use and not really considering having to repeat it to others.