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Most disastrous Roman Military Defeats
#1
Salvete,<br>
<br>
What Roman military blunder would qualify as the worst defeat in Roman history? Would you say Cannae 216 B.C., Tuetoburg Forest 9 A.D., or Adrianople 378 A.D.? Are they any others? This might make for an interesting discussion!<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Centurion725 <p></p><i></i>
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#2
Shapur's three invasions definitely rank up there. The first one saw the first major defeat of the Romans at the hand of an eastern power since Carrhae, the second supposedly saw the destruction of a 70,000 strong Roman army at Barbalissos, and the third saw the capture of the emperor Valerian and his officers, as well as the bulk of his army. This period cannot be overestimated in importance. <p></p><i></i>
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#3
Thanks, Hottoq! Is there any recent scholarship on the Shapur's invasions?<br>
<br>
Vale,<br>
Centurion725 <p></p><i></i>
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#4
I agree with telling Shapur's great success but you ruined it all by mentioning a supposed destruction of a 70 thousand strong roman army at Barbalissos. It is quite supposed! Is it mentioned in "roman" sources? Is it not unlikely that such a very large disaster be sweeped under the rug without major consequences being known to us?<br>
<br>
The romans did not have the resources to handle such a large destruction so we would know about many great repurcussions that would confirm such a disaster. Even if they suffered defeat it is unlikely they suffered a destruction. The word "destruction" sounds like propaganda. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=goffredo>goffredo</A> at: 1/27/04 10:25 am<br></i>
Jeffery Wyss
"Si vos es non secui of solutio tunc vos es secui of preciptate."
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#5
The Roman defeat at Misikhe goes completely unmentioned in Roman sources -- indeed, they unanimously claim that Gordian was victorious in Persia -- yet it is readily accepted that the Roman army did indeed suffer such a defeat at the hands of the Persians.<br>
<br>
Just because Roman sources ignore it doesn't mean it didn't happen. The Romans were masters of propaganda. <p></p><i></i>
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#6
Yes I agree the romans, as were the centralized Sassanian rulers, quite interested in propaganda. However there is no real evidence that a 70 thousand roman army was "destroyed". As I see it the problem is with the word "destroyed", a word used very often by roman propaganda too. I don't question the notion of a roman defeat. Shapur was good, very good! But a real roman disaster of such proportions would be evident from other evidence, even if it were cancelled from the books by some censor. I conclude that the Sassanian sources, at least with what concerns the description of their success against the romans in this particular instance, are not credible.<br>
<br>
By the way we knew about Shapur's great victories by "roman" sources even before the findings of the Sassanian sulptures of the capture of Valerian. The roman sources are basically useful to a historian; i.e. one can do a certain amount of cross-referencing to attribute some degree of credibility to a documented episode. A documented episode that stands in relative isolation is assigned a relatively small level of credibility.<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Jeffery Wyss
"Si vos es non secui of solutio tunc vos es secui of preciptate."
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#7
The famous Sapor's inscription at Nasq-I-Rustam speaks of a 60.000 strong army being destroyed at Barbalissos. I think however it should be translated as "defeated". The numbers may also have been "sexed up".<br>
Scholars are not quite sure yet whether this inscription refers to one or two campaigns by the Persians.<br>
I found the inscription lying in the depths of RAT. Here it is again. It's a beautiful text.<br>
<br>
"I, worshipper of Mazda, the god Shapour, king of kings of Iranians and non-iranians, from the race of the gods, son of Mazda's worshipper the god Ardashir, king of kings of the Iranians, from the race of the gods, grandson of Papak, king.<br>
Of the Iranian Empire I am the lord."<br>
<br>
"And I possess the following coutries: Persia, Parthia, Susiana, Mesenia, Asôrestân, Adiabene, Arabia, Atropatenia, Armenia, Georgia, Makhelonia, Albania, Balâsagân all the way to the Caucasus and the Albanian Gates, and the whole Elbrouz range, Media, Hyrcania, Margiana, Ariana and all the highlands: Carmania, Sakhastenia, Turan, Moukrân, Paradenia, Sind and the land of the Kuchans all the way to the Paskibur and the confines of Kachgaria, Soigdiana and Tachkent and, on the other side of the sea, the Omân. And we gave to a fiefdom(?) the name of Peroz-Shapour (Victory of Shapour) and we gave a name to Hormizd-Ardashir. And we reduced the satraps and kings of these numerous lands to tributaries and subjects."<br>
<br>
"Soon as we were established in the Empire, the Caesar Gordian levied in all the Roman Empire an army of Goths and Germans and marched on Asôrestân, against the Empire of Iran and ourselves".<br>
"And on the confines of Asôrestân, at Misikhè, there was a great battle. And the Caesar Gordian died and we annihilated the roman army. And the Romans hailed Philip as Caesar. And the Caesar Philip paid five hundred thousand denarii as ransom for their (the Romans) lives and became our tributary"<br>
"For that reason we have renamed Misikhé Peroz-Shapour".<br>
<br>
"And the Caesar again lied (This Caesar was Trebonianus Gallus, Emperor from 251 to 253 AD) and did wrong to Armenia. And we attacked the Roman Empire and annihilated at Barbalissos (252 AD) an army of sixty thousand. And Syria and its countryside we set afire and looted. And during that single campaign we conquered over the Roman Empire the following places and lands: The city of Anatya and the flatlands (Fields?) , Birtha of Arupân and the flatlands, Birtha of Aspôrak and the flatlands, the city of Soura and the flatlands, Barbalissos, Hierapolis, Berroia, Chaclis, Apamea, Rephania, Zeugma, Ourima, Gindaros, Armenaza, Seleucia, Antioch, Cyrrhe, another city in Seleucia, Alexandretta, Nicopolis, Sinzara, Hama, Aristè, Dikhôr, Dolikhè, Dura, Circusium, Germanikeia, Batyna, Kanar. And in Cappadocia: Satala, Domana, Artangil, Souisa, Soudia, Phreata, a total of thirty seven cities and their flatlands."<br>
<br>
"During the third campaign, as we attacked Carrhae and Edessa and were laying siege to Carrhae and Edessa, the Caesar Valerian marched against with troops from Germania, Raethia, Noricum, Dacia, Pannonia, Mysia, Istria, Spain, Mauretania, Thrace, Bythinia, Asia, Pamphylia, Isauria, Lycaonia, Galatia, Lycia, Cilicia, Cappadocia, Phrygia, Syria, Phoenicia, Judea, Arabia, Mauretania, Germania, Lydia, Asia, Mesopotamia. A seventy thousand strong army. And Beyond Carrhae and Edessa there was a great battle with the Caesar Valerian. And the Caesar Valerian we captured ourselves with our own hands; and the other leaders of that army: Pretorian prefect, senators and officers, all we captured them and deported them to Persia. And Syria, Cilicia and Cappadocia we laid waiste, set afire and looted."<br>
<br>
"In that third campaign we conquered over the Roman Empire: the city of Samosate and the flatlands, Alexandretta, Kabalos, Aigeai, Mopsueste, Mallos, Adana, Tarse, Augusta, Zephyrion, Sebastea, Korykos, Anazarbe, Kastabala, Neronias, Flavias, Nicopolis, Epiphanea, Kelendris, Anemourion, Selinous, Myônpolis, Antioch, Seleucia, Domitiopolis, Tyane, Cesarea, Comana, Kybistra, Sebastea, Barata, Rajhoundia, Laranda, Iconion. A total of thirty six cities and their flatlands."<br>
<br>
"And some of the men taken from the Roman Empire, over the Non-Iranians, we sent into deportation. And we settled them in our Empire of Iran, in Persia, in Parthia, In Susiana and in Asôrestân. And in each land where our ancestors, grands fathers and fathers had domains, there we settled them."<br>
<br>
"And we sought (in order to fight them) many other nations and we earned a great reputation of bravery, (things) we have not carved here, besides all the preceedings. We ordered it would be carved, in order for those that will come after us to recognize this reputation, this bravery and this power".<br>
<br>
Impressive isn't it?<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://localhost:1094/Homesteads/_1750094854/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 2/3/04 4:19 pm<br></i>
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#8
I would say the most disastrous defeat was the Fall of Constantinople in 1453. This spelled the death of "The Roman Empire". Who knows what would have happened if Janos Hunyadi had marched to the city's aid! <p></p><i></i>
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#9
Well, Janos Hunyadi didn't...<br>
I wonder what would have happened if Grouchy had shown up at Waterloo, instead of Blücher.<br>
But he didn't.<br>
Come to think of it, Waterloo was the most disastrous roman military defeat.... <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 2/3/04 5:17 pm<br></i>
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#10
Quote:Salvete,<br>
<br>
What Roman military blunder would qualify as the worst defeat in Roman history? Would you say Cannae 216 B.C., Tuetoburg Forest 9 A.D., or Adrianople 378 A.D.? Are they any others? This might make for an interesting discussion!<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Centurion725

<p></p><i></i>
i would say it would have to be carrhae,the house of brutii defeated by the parthians???
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#11
Hi, just to say you shouldn't take everything RTW says at face value, true, the parthians annhialated Crassus, and his forces, but there were no particular houses like in RTW, there were differant people with there own ambitions to take power etc. but it was nowhere near as clear cut as RTW makes it out to be. And welcome to the forum Big Grin
Dave Bell/Secvndvs

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#12
I lol'ed ... anyways considering everything

The Battle of Adrianople could be considered one of the most Disastrous Roman military defeats in the empires history.

Although Entire roman armies had being wiped out before eg Teutoburg Forest Disaster of 9 AD and Roman Emperors had being killed in battle eg Trajan Decius 249 - 251 AD, Adrianople Comprised of both of these things plus it exposed the empires strategic weakness and changed Rome's position as a near "unbeatable opponentâ€
Quintius Lucius Cato / James Holder Smile <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" />Smile
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#13
Quote:If the Goths had not won Adrianople the subsequent history of the West Roman Empire would of most likely being greatly different, The Roman Empire "May" of not Fallen when it did and the sack of Rome in 410 by Alaric would have most likely not occurred, considering there probably would not of being such a great push of the barbarian tribes to infiltrate the empires boarders.

I doubt that.
a) It was the Eastern field army that took heavy losses, not the Western field army.
b) There is no evodence that the Goths who won at Adrianople were involved in Alaric's attack on Rome. Alaric was not the next king in line or anything.
c) This was no tribe that infiltarted the empire. Alaric was active as a power within the empire, most of the time used as a general for the eastern army. The move to get him move west was a political masterstroke of Contantinople, not a barbaric tribe attacking the heart of the empire. Alaric was a magister militum, his forces waxed and waned after vicory and defeat, but for most of his career he had managed to been paid by one of the Roman parties. Alaric, whose main demand was that his followers would be regarded as a regular Roman army, was one of the first generals who showed that personal power was stronger than the empire. Many would follow. The sack of Rome was the result of politics going horribly wrong. The Goths were not invading, they were after money owed to them. Stilicho had made a deal with Alaric to join him in an attack on Constantine III. But then Stilicho was killed at the instigation of Honorius and Alaric, robbed of a profitable campaign, asked for his money. Honorius refused, and we know the result.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#14
If Varus had not lost 3 legions in the Tuetoburgerwald, Octavian would not have shirked from expanding the empire. It was his decree that the boundaries no longer be expanded. If he had not allowed this defeatism to creep in, things would have been very different. Tue, it may not be such an obvious effect as say Adrainople, but it was the start. Defeat never fased the Romans before, they were only minor glitches on the road to glory. Suddenly, things changed>
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
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Byron Angel
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#15
Quote:The Roman defeat at Misikhe goes completely unmentioned in Roman sources -- indeed, they unanimously claim that Gordian was victorious in Persia -- yet it is readily accepted that the Roman army did indeed suffer such a defeat at the hands of the Persians.

Ave,

Is the battle at Misikhe the one where Gordian III was killed in battle?

There are ancient Persian sculptures showing a defeat of Gordian III, lying dead under a horse with his Prefect Philip the Arab begging for his life. Philip later became emperor of course.

However, I honestly don't know if this would count as the worse defeat but, a defeat never the less... where was Germanicus when they needed him! He would have laid the smack down! :wink:

http://www.livius.org is the source:

http://www.livius.org/a/iran/bishapur/b ... lief2.html

[Image: bishapur_relief_2_philip.jpg]

[Image: bishapur_relief_2_valerian.jpg]

[Image: bishapur_relief_2_0r.JPG]
Vale!

Antonivs Marivs Congianocvs
aka_ANTH0NY_C0NGIAN0

My ancient coin collection:
[url:3lgwsbe7]http://www.congiano.com/MyCoins/index.htm[/url]
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