Velsen belt plates

[Dean Cunningham metalsmit]

Does anyone know the details of construction of the Velsen belt plates featured in MC Bishops book? They appear to be sheet with rivets but folded over so as to conceal the rivets.<br>
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What was the nature of the find? I know it was a well but were the plates found in such a manner that it would indicate placement on a belt (indications of distance from one another).<br>
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I also know there were four plain plates, two dagger frogs and one buckle that where all silvered or tinned. Is there any reason to think there could have been more than just this number? Were they silvered or tinned and was this done over the entire surface(front and back)?<br>
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What was the overall thickness of the plates?<br>
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Are all of my questions answered in a monograph somewhere?<br>
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Thanks for any help you may provide. <p>Just a filthy guy swingin' a hammer</p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Hi Dean!<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>Are all of my questions answered in a monograph somewhere?<hr><br>
<br>
Not in a monograph but in a paper (including very good and detailed drawings): MOREL, J.-M. A. W. and BOSMAN, A. V. A. J.: "An early roman burial in Velsen I". In: VAN DRIEL-MURRAY, C. (ed.): Roman Military Equipment: The Sources of Evidence. Proceedings of the Fifth Roman Military Equipment Conference. Oxford (BAR Int. Ser. 476) 1989, pp. 167-191.<br>
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If you have difficulties obtaining the book, I can answer your questions here.<br>
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Greetings,<br>
<br>
Martin <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=magisternavis>Magister Navis</A> at: 3/21/03 3:28:53 am<br></i>

[Dean Cunningham metalsmit]

Martin,<br>
<br>
Thanks! I'll look for it.<br>
<br>
Dean <p>Just a filthy guy swingin' a hammer</p><i></i>

[Matthew Amt]

Ave!<br>
<br>
Yup, what Martin said. As I recall, there are 8 plates altogether, including one for the buckle and two for the frogs. So they were either spaced out around the belt, or possibly the back of the belt was left unplated. They aren't very thick, .032" at most. It looks like they were cast with integral pegs on the back, but pretty bloody thin castings if that's the case. It's possible that the pegs are really rivets, made flush on the front, but none have pulled out or come loose enough to tell, so I'm not sure about that.<br>
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Apparently, the plates were originally silvered, and when that coating was getting worn they were covered with silver foil. That was getting worn out, too! On most of the plates, one end (or both on some?) was folded under, just an eighth inch or so, no idea why. The folded part doesn't reach the rivets. The plates with the frogs had extra-long ends cut into tabs which were folded under to form the hinge lugs. On the buckle plate, however, an extra piece of brass was folded for the hinge lugs and riveted behind the plate. One of the other plates had an extra rivet (with a very flat head visible on the front) in the middle of one end. There were no apron studs or terminals at all.<br>
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Most or all of the rivets/pegs still have their washers in place. On one plate they are rectangular, on the others they are round, a little dished from being punched out, and some even have little "bites" out of the edges from being punched out too close to each other!<br>
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I don't remember the dimensions offhand, something like 1-1/8" by maybe 2", but they aren't all the same. The leather they were riveted to was a little under 1/8", as I recall.<br>
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Anyway, that's what I've got off the top of my head! My theory is that it's a second- or third-hand piece of junk, cobbled together from old parts. (Though at least they all match!) It seems the guy blew his whole budget on that fabulous pugio scabbard, and couldn't afford a new belt to hang it on!<br>
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Vale for now,<br>
<br>
Matthew/Quintus <p></p><i></i>

[Dean Cunningham metalsmit]

I'm more curious now than ever. I'm having a devil of a time finding the paper but I'll keep on trying. Thanks Matt for the detailed run down. It explains some of what I see in Bishops book. <p>Just a filthy guy swingin' a hammer</p><i></i>

[Dean Cunningham metalsmit]

found the thing on oxbow. They are not easy to search sometimes. Thanks guys <p>Just a filthy guy swingin' a hammer</p><i></i>

[Dean Cunningham metalsmit]

Oxbow did not have this paper. I would like to do this belt but want more precise info than Bishop and Coulston provides. Any one want to sell thier copy of the paper? <p>Just a filthy guy swingin' a hammer</p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Hey Dean,<br>
<br>
If nobody nearer than I am (I live in Europe) can solve your problem with that paper, I'll do (for free!)<br>
You've got my e-mail address, just send an e-mail with your postal address and I'll photocopy the paper and I'll post it to the U.S.A. during next August (I'm cheap but not quick!)<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Hello dean,<br>
<br>
If you still need good drawings of the Velsen belt, fittings and dagger, do not hesitate to give be a call, I've got very good reconstructiondrawings of them.<br>
greetings,<br>
<br>
arpvar<br>
<p></p><i></i>