SCALES the fast way

[Hibernicus]

That sounds interesting - could you show us some pics of the scales, or better yet, a squamata you have made with this method?

Can't... been way too long ago!.. 'ats why I've been attempting to retrieve the punch set I loaned out.. guess it's time to make another... just need a new strap end punch... TANDY carries them BTW

[Syr Ateas]

"Bronze scale armour sewn onto chainmail !"
....what the...??? hock: hock: Surely some mistake?

Nope, that is how it was found! I have heard another grave had this type of armour - am currently hunting down the source. Personally I feel this would have made for a very heavy set of armour...

A new "Scythian Armour" thread in the Greek section will be the way to go.

I'm on my way

Are the scale and leather pieces the fragmented ones from 5cent cuirass found in the Sem'Bratiev barrow?

I'll have to check on that - I'm still waiting for some Russian works I've sent off for.

the male does not appear to be based on the 'King's' equipment, rather a 'composite' of many, including the Solokha comb...

Yes, he is a composite, but from excavated Kurgans in the Ukraine. Lots of new work and new discoveries have been uncovered in the 1990's, much of which is still awaiting publication. Can't wait

[Crispvs]

I just though I would post up a couple of photos of the next stage of things. Making scales is all very well but they are not much use until they are fixed together and mounted on a backing garment.

Here then, is my attempt so far.

First we have the components. The scales are about the same size as the ones we have been talking about but are of a slightly different pattern as you can see. I have been making the staples from copper wire. Each staple is slightly over an inch long and I hold it in the centre with the ends of a pair of needle nosed pliers and bend the ends up by hand. You need to do a couple of trial staples first to make sure they fit the holes in the scales. If they do not, adjust the position of the wire in the pliers. The type of scale I am using has a single hole for attaching it to the backing garment. Each row of scales is backed by a piece of twine, which is enclosed by each staple as it is closed. The twine will be sewn to the backing garment.



Next we have completed rows of scales viewed from front and back. The thread to stitch the scales to the backing garment will pass out through the hole and loop around the twine as it is passed back through the hole again.



Sorry about the low quality of the photos - they were taken with a mobile phone.

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Scales on mail....this sounds very interesting! I can't wait to see the pictures!

[Crispvs]

There are a number of Roman examples of mail faced with small scales. The armour from Ham Hill comes to mind as an example.

Crispvs

[Franklin]

Each row of scales is backed by a piece of twine, which is enclosed by each staple as it is closed. The twine will be sewn to the backing garment.




Crispvs

I don't think I've come across this before. Where did you get the idea for the twine? And how is it different from just stitching through the center hole?

[Syr Ateas]

Curses! I was planning to post some close-up photos of Scythian scale armour so you could see how they were fastened but my scanner has died. Do folks want me to post here or on the Scythian armour thread :?:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Both.... 8)

[Crispvs]

The twine wasn't my idea - it was one I took from someone else. However, it seems a legimate answer to the problem of how to use a single large hole to attach scales to a backing garment. Many surviving scales have a large hole which seems to be intended for use in attaching the scale to the backing garment. If the hole was intended for a single stitch why would it need to be so large? In fact, for stitching the scale to a backing it would make more sense to have two smaller holes, which would allow less movement and consequent wear in the stitching. A single large hole points to something other than stitching and using it as a means to loop a thread over a cord which is already attached to the scales themselves seams, as I said above, as legitimate interpretation of the single larger hole. It is also cheaper than using rivets to secure the scales to the garment, and in any case, the surviving scales do not show evidence of rivetting.

Crispvs

[Franklin]

I don't disagree. In fact I never stopped to consider why the central hole might be larger. In my one previous suit I simply wired the scales into rows and then sewed the rows onto the backing with a running stitch going into the hole of each scale and coming out above the hole of the next one.

I think, if done correctly, your method would actually produce a more rigid final product as well. Hard to explain exactly why in text, but the dynamics make sense in my head.

[Matt Lukes]

This is how the function of the big single hole is usually explained- although I don't know if it's supported archaeologically or just a theory. Presumably the section of the thick cord above each scale is then stitched to the sub-garment.

[Franklin]

This is exactly what my suit looked like, except I stitched the rows directly onto the backing, no cord to act as intermediary.

[Robert Vermaat]

I recall the finds from Carpow, which had scales riveted to each other and a twisted string that laced the scales together. However, not as in the image above but horizontally. The way above will surely induce chafing damage to those laces! I had in fact to re-lace several rows of my scales when after a few months the string went.

I did not use a twine like Crispvs, but a leather thong that was stitched to the backing. This twine also served to reduce chafing from one scale to another.

If scales have only one large hole, I think they must be laced to each other and the backing in one go. With 5 holes of which one large, I think that single one is best explained as the hole through which the twine/string/thing is sewn onto the backing.

[Aedinius]

I have been hard at work making my scale shirt. I used the guide idea to make my scales. My scales are about 1.14 inches wide and 1.8 inches long. I know they are a bit large, but to save a bit of sanity I chose to make them a bit larger. I made the Scales out of 410 spring stainless and after all 800 are completed I will be getting them heat treated which will make them very tough. I know the metal is not period, in fact it would of been a lot easier to use brass or mild, however the shirt is being made for rattan combat so I wanted to combine toughness and rust resistance to it. I will be using a heavy 12 ounce linen backing and adding leather lining and pteurges to the arms and waist. I have completed over 250 scales already and I am hoping to finish them up and have them treated by the end of the month. Here are a few pics.

[Hibernicus]

What gauge are you using?
Ever thought of tin plating the mild steel or brass?