SCALES the fast way

[Matt Lukes]

Oh you don't have to go that far Jason- a steel bar with a groove cut into it (with a dremel and a cutoff wheel, for example), and a second bar with one edge tapered to fit the groove- then with a little piece of masking or duct tape to hold the scale in place for a second and a hammerstrike, and you've got ribs.

[Aedinius]

Very true, however I am using tougher metal (.032 410, 304 stainless) which takes a lot more convincing to make it move, cut and punch holes in. In fact, I am going to see if I can make a stamp for the scales and punch the entire shape of the scale. If this works, I am hoping it would reduce clean up and all I have to do is drill out the holes for the scales and some deburring cleanup. I am hoping I will be able to mass produce these or at least make a considerable amount for people as well as for myself. If I can't make the stamp, I will definitely make the same kind of idea that was done by grinding and drilling a large amount at once. Will be experimenting on both of these concepts. If people are interested I will take some pics and post them.

[M. Demetrius]

Well, I'm interested, and I'm sure others are, too. Sound off, folks! Ya want pix?

[Sextus Aurelius Propertiu]

Hello Luc

Nice work and very useful for all of us , especially secons and third century romans . Congratulations and laudes for you ..!

Regards

Sextus Aurelius Propertius pcc Eric-Alexandre POHER

[Matt Lukes]

Very true, however I am using tougher metal (.032 410, 403 stainless) which takes a lot more convincing to make it move, cut and punch holes in. In fact, I am going to see if I can make a stamp for the scales and punch the entire shape of the scale. If this works, I am hoping it would reduce clean up and all I have to do is drill out the holes for the scales and some deburring cleanup. I am hoping I will be able to mass produce these or at least make a considerable amount for people as well as for myself. If I can't make the stamp, I will definitely make the same kind of idea that was done by grinding and drilling a large amount at once. Will be experimenting on both of these concepts. If people are interested I will take some pics and post them.

Stainless steel? That might not be so good a choice given that it's a completely inaccurate (historically) material to use, and moreso because there's no evidence that soldiers' armor was made of anything but copper alloy scales- the only iron scales known are from the mid 3rd century AD, are quite large, and are believed to be from horse trappers. Certainly the only known use of iron scales is on a horse trapper. Also 0.032 is 50% thicker than the usual soldiers' armor scales which were were only about 0.5mm thick (0.020") at most. And not to be a continual downer, but a cutting die will be difficult- it's hard enough to cut brass with one; I have to use a 6-ton hydraulic press to cut segmentata hinges that are two thicknesses of 0.020" brass, so 0.032" stainless steel is definitely going to be a lot more difficult. It's also slow- cutting with shears is much faster than die-cutting for simple shapes like scales. So unless you have access to some major industrial stamping equipment, mass production is not likley to be feasible. I looked into having large quantities of scales made a few months ago and everywhere I tried, domestic and overseas, it was going to be rather costly- ultimately it was cheaper to make them myself cutting scales by hand from strips. And I was sick to death of making scales when I finished the 3500 or so I needed for just the one squamata...

[Aedinius]

I know that stainless is not historical, however stainless is cheaper than brass or bronze and will hold up better in rattan fighting which I do. I just might go even thinner with the 410 I am buying especially when there will be a flute in the middle of the scale and I will be heat treating them. I would very much like a shirt made of brass or bronze, but I am concerned how well it will hold up and of course brass and bronze just isn't cheap nowadays. The scales I am making are 26mmX46mm. They are small, but not near as small as you will be needing 3500 a shirt. As for stamping, I was afraid of that, so my idea was to get the metal cut into bands width wise of the scale, and then make a stamp that will punch out the bottom part of it. I looked into having these made as well and had the same issue on how much they would cost especially in brass. I think the lowest quote I got in brass was .22 cents, stainless .18 cents, and T6 Al .16 cents with a $235 dollar engineering fee for each type of metal. I couldn't find anyone who would make them in bronze. I don't mind repetitious types of chores and projects. I guess I am odd that way. I do however want to be as efficient as I can in making scales so this thread has really helped me out in thinking more outside the box in producing scales in a larger amount.

[Iosephus]

That might not be so good a choice given that it's a completely inaccurate (historically) material to use, and moreso because there's no evidence that soldiers' armor was made of anything but copper alloy scales- the only iron scales known are from the mid 3rd century AD, are quite large, and are believed to be from horse trappers. Certainly the only known use of iron scales is on a horse trapper.

Iron scales from the vicus of Azaum/Odiavum/Almásfüzítő (scroll down the page until the second third part of the page) :

http://www.almasfuzito.hu/?q=hirek&sub=hir1

There were approx. 100 iron scales found in a pit, all of them are of varying size, linked to each other with brass wire (some of them was repaired with brass rivets) and they are dated between the reign of Vespasian and Traian.

But of course that doesn't mean that stainless steel would be authentic

[Aedinius]

Of course :wink: I had to take into account of various applications of these shirts as well as cost, maintenance, durability of the scales in related to rattan combat. I truly do want to eventually do scales in brass and in bronze as well. Right now I am working with a company who can laser cut the scales. Hopefully I can get a decent quote and then when I get them, I can concentrate on fluting or curving the scale and producing shirts for people.

[Matt Lukes]

I know that stainless is not historical, however stainless is cheaper than brass or bronze and will hold up better in rattan fighting which I do.

Ah, well if you're not so much going for an accurate reconstruction, and potentially going to have someone bash on you, then that's different :wink: - although scale armor really isn't the best impact defense ever ...

[Matt Lukes]

Iron scales from the vicus of Azaum/Odiavum/Almásfüzítő (scroll down the page until the second third part of the page) :

http://www.almasfuzito.hu/?q=hirek&sub=hir1

There were approx. 100 iron scales found in a pit, all of them are of varying size, linked to each other with brass wire (some of them was repaired with brass rivets) and they are dated between the reign of Vespasian and Traian.

Cool- but is there any reason to believe they're from soldiers' armor? That's the issue, not whether or not iron scales existed.

[Aedinius]

I presently used tombstone lamellar made of T6 Aluminum and it really works well for rattan combat. The scales disperse the impat extremely well and the movement is just great. I may not use exact materials, but the design of the scales and how they work is very close on how they were made or at least the theory and the remnants we have of them. If I could get the bronze and afford it, I would prefer it. I am going to buy some Red Brass and see how well it will work for scales. For all intents and purpsoses, I will see how stainless holds up and I am sure they will look great.

[M. Demetrius]

Red brass, some say is very similar to the bronze that the Romans used. I don't know that much about metallurgy, but that's what they say.

Ubiquitous, aren't they?

[Iosephus]

Cool- but is there any reason to believe they're from soldiers' armor? That's the issue, not whether or not iron scales existed.

errgh...

so you doubt that

a) the iron scales were part of an armour

or

b) that armour made of iron scales were worn by soldiers?

Do we have any evidence that other elements of the roman society wore armour othen than soldiers? I can't recall any but that doesn't mean none exists, just I'm not aware of it.

[LVCIVS VVLPES]

Thank you all for your comments, that's extra fuel to work on. :wink:

Luc, the shirt looks very uncomfortable to wear so I'm wondering what to wear for protection against the staples - maybe a leather jerkin ?

Yes Theo, a leather jerkin will be the best way for protection against the staples

As to the locking scale, that's very stiff to wear is it not?

Robert, as long as its bent in one direction its rather flexible, once its made to fit the body shape it becomes stiff and my conclusion now that I made this armor is that locking scale can only be used as part of the armor in combination with simple row scales







Luc

[/img]

[LVCIVS VVLPES]

How did you compute how many scales you'd need?

David, I made a sample piece to see what surface was covered with that number of scales, than calculate the surface you want to cover and divide it by the sample surface , multiple that number by the number of scales of the sample and you will be very close by the number of scales you need.

a simple, fine and effective way to home-make the central ridge on any scale, by simple tools too

Daniele, You have the simple way Matt lukes explained or still simpler is that you make the die with a raised rib and simply a block of tin as a contra die, first you put your die on the tin block an give it a blow or two to make the grove , put your scale in place over the grove and with one hammer strike you will have a ribbed scale, and the next and so on , when the edges of the grove become to dull move to an other place on the tin block (This is for brass scales only)

It sure saved a HUGE amount of time

Matt, sure it saved a huge amount of time, when I make my calculation of the drill cycle I come at 20 seconds per scale

I was wondering, how did you get the wire nice and tight on the scale and what type of wire and thickness did you use.

I'm interested in this part, too. They look like staples to me.

Maybe an electric stapler was used

Jason, the wire is 1mm brass wire that I passed trough my rolling mill to make flat wire.
sorry Theo, it are hand made staples :wink:



Jason, the wire may not be to tight on the scale ore it will be to stiff, I just used a simple little tool for closing the staples as some sort of a ring with two long legs



the tool is made of a large nail, filed to shape and a piece of plate silver soldered on it to hold the staple straight up when I bent the first leg down
pictures in next post

Luc