The Immortals

[Paullus Scipio]

...then come, sir, let us open another of our splendid Oz Reds( even though we are a thousand kilmetres apart)...and drink a toast to careful and critical use of sources.......

Vivat !!

[Paralus]

Indeed! A Wirra Wirra Angelus.

First today!

[Paralus]

Hmmmm, the Osso Bucco smells marvellous. Time to lift it from the slow cooker. The red is beheaded and I'm travelling well.

So Paul, any "letters to the editor" over the article? Or, contrary to the civilised argument, did you enjoy it?

[Artabanos]

@bachmat66

I would like to get a copy of "From Cyrus to Alexander", but it unfortunately seems that a credit card is needed. I will search further; don't want to miss a 1000+ page book on just 250 years time-span!

@Vishtaspa

Don't worry at all, the achemenet web can be put in english, and contains many material ( some articles) in english. The other web, http://www.museum-achemenet.college-de-france.fr/ has great image stuff.

Wow thanks, I missiles those pictures!

Regards

And all done with a few nomadic herders. A triumph of logistics indeed.

@Paralus

I would like to make something clear; I use Xenophon only for certain information, I surely don't believe that the Cyropaedia is a biography of Cyrus.

And all done with a few nomadic herders. A triumph of logistics indeed.

No, Cyrus was inspired by an Elamite heavy chariot. He then got himself workers from Mesopotamia to design and build it, so no Persian nomads. I also don’t claim that all Persians were nomads, they had close relations with the Elamites and the original peasant people of the Persis were closely related to the Elamites. The main tribes were still mainly herdsman but there were also Persians who were land owners and had those peasants work for themselves together with low-ranking Persians. So there were already “Persianâ€

[Vishtaspa]

I find your post very interesting too and quite agree with it, but:

Paralus\\n[quote]

They owe much more to the Neo-Elamite kingdom that partially fell to the Medes. Their language shows much that is Elamite. They are attested as an “ethinic groupâ€

[Sean Manning]

Laus, Paralus. I've left this debate because I'm way too busy and there isn't much to be said: in my opinion the Cyropaedia has far too many purely fictional or idealized elements to be used without the greatest of caution.

Artabanos, in my opinion we know there were many heavy infantry in Artaxerxes' army. The Greek half of Cyrus' rebel army faced Egyptian troops with large wooden shields, who probably inspired the Egyptian hoplites of the Cyropaedia, and gerraphoroi (the Greek word for sparabara). The gerraphoroi were probably backed with more spearmen or archers, making them heavy infantry either way since they fought in close order and had to hold their ground when attacked.

Of course, the Egyptians were from a newly conquered land, which may explain why they ran so easily and spoiled Artaxerxes' plans.

I agree with your estimate of 70,000 in Artaxerxes' army although it may be a bit high and I don't believe he had as many as 10,000 cavalry. Personally, I would say Cyrus probably had 25,000 to 30,000 soldiers for the battle, and Artaxerxes 50,000 to 60,000 (since 13,000 Greeks and 1,000 cavalry were about half of Cyrus' army, and Artaxerxes' army had a line twice as long).

Wow, this thread is off topic.

[Paullus Scipio]

Paralus wrote:-

So Paul, any "letters to the editor" over the article? Or, contrary to the civilised argument, did you enjoy it?

....no letters ! ...As I said, the debate over how the Silver Shields were armed, and all the various possibilities were well canvassed on the thread...a letter to the editor would only be repetitious, and couldn't cover all the ground anyway.
And I never said I didn't enjoy the article....in fact I see nothing wrong with your method, and I like the style....I'm rather looking forward to more...... :wink: :wink:

[Paralus]

And I never said I didn't enjoy the article....in fact I see nothing wrong with your method, and I like the style....I'm rather looking forward to more......

Thanks - most kind.

Working on something for the age of the trireme theme. Glad you enjoyed it. Originally, it will have formed the "background" part of a piece on the second Diadoch war bookended by the battle of Gabiene. At something near to 5,500-6,000 words, it was far too long for AW. JAsper suggested the "warrior" and so it was mercilessly taken to with a kopis.

I will, one day, find something to do with three thousand word battle description excised from the piece.

Vishtaspa\\n[quote]I find your post very interesting too and quite agree with it, but:

Paralus\\n[quote]

They owe much more to the Neo-Elamite kingdom that partially fell to the Medes. Their language shows much that is Elamite. They are attested as an “ethinic groupâ€

[Paullus Scipio]

To Paralus :-
...sent you a P.M. re Diadochi et al ( as it's off-topic)

[Vishtaspa]

No, Persian language. Yes it is the language of "governance" that I was referring to. Were I at home, immersed in the library of Paralus, I'd run down Briant's suggestion that there is somewhat more evidence of the Mede's nicking the Elamite language (and so Persian) rather than the other way around. I believe he suggests that there may not ever have been a "Median" language.

I have Briant at hand, let me quote a line:

"What is more, the permanence of Elamite borrowings in every aspect of social and political life leads us to believe that the organization of the kingdom of Cyrus asnd his successors owes more to the Elamite legacy, which can be identified precisely, than to Median borrowings, which are very difficult to isolate." (ed.2002, pg 27).

That is true, but must be remarked that there were no elamite borrowings in persian language; Persians took elamite for administration tablets (with iranian loanwords), but no elamite loans in persian inscriptions.

And yes, he suggests (pp 24-25) that there may not have been a separated Median language. It is difficult to call something "Median", but, linguisticaly there are strong philological evidence that there was a well differenciated dialect (many double words like "aspa-asa" "horse", "median" but no persian issogloses with avestan...) Linguists agree that there was a so called "median" dialect (among other old iranian better known dialects).

regards

[Paralus]

And all done with a few nomadic herders. A triumph of logistics indeed.

I would like to make something clear; I use Xenophon only for certain information, I surely don't believe that the Cyropaedia is a biography of Cyrus.

And a bloody good thing too!!

Whilst, due to the nature of the source, the details are left unsaid, the results are recorded. This was no single battle where Astyages lost due to treachery.

I never said that. I only said that they most likely accepted Cyrus after Astyages was killed, most likely in a battle. However the conflict was not intensive, since the Medes were more or less the equals of the Persians within the empire...

And I wasn't asserting that you did. That is the Herodotean view. It is not necessarily the view of the Babylonian Chronicles. The Nabonidus Chronicle has the following to say:

King Astyages called up his troops and marched against Cyrus [Kuraš], king of Anšan, in order to meet him in battle. The army of Astyages revolted against him and in fetters they delivered him to Cyrus. Cyrus marched against the country Agamtanu [the Median capital Ecbatana]; the royal residence he seized; silver, gold, other valuables of the country Agamtanu he took as booty and brought to Anšan.

We would dearly like to know more. What this clearly implies is that Astyages was reacting to Cyrus. It is more likely that this war had been underway for some time. That Astyages' army "revolted" is indicative, quite possibly, of prior battle (defeats?). I'm not certain I'm convinced of what, on the face of it, appear to be generic ME tales leading to Harpagus' treachery. There more likely are much more down to earth reasons as to why an army - or a significant section of it - would revolt from its king.

I need to have Briant's CtoA handy! You simply must find the lucre to purchase it.

[Paralus]

Thanks Vishtaspa - saves me searching. I'm going to have to re-read the bloody thing. So many books; so many reds; so little time.

It has been explained to me just what, exactly, "Laudes" are. Thanks for the pat on the virtual back: amazing what a bottle and a bit more of good red can do for one's focus?!

It may well appear, at least to Artabanos, that I am “dissingâ€

[Artabanos]

@Paralus

It’s true and interesting what you say about Xenophon, I myself as a descendant of the Persians have surely no pan-Hellenic agenda but I greatly respect them.
The point is that also Herodotus (and more or less all other Greek authors) had ridiculous numbers and sometimes purely fictional tales, but beside that also invaluable information.

Xenophon also has jolly good pieces of information. As I said his on horsemandship , had most likely a Persian original, so why should his moral tales in the Cyropaedia not be mainly of Persian origin. As I said the style of these tales greatly reminds me of the Shahname. These would be no historical reports but tales for the ordinary Persian. Story of Herodotus like Darius’ opinion on monarchy and democracy might have been Hellenic tales, but could also have been of Persian origin, for the Persian people but this is very hard to accept for some groups for which the Persian kings were just “Asiaticâ€

[Aryaman2]

On a side note
To start a discussion aboout Persian numbers in battles against Greeks, we should remember that Greek sources don´t agree not only on Persian numbers, but also on Greek numbers, and that at best they report official strength. Students of Ancient Wars would gain a lot from reading discussions on the subject of numbers in the Military Revolution of XVI-XVIII century and the problems the sources have, and the all important difference between overall armies and field armies.

[Paralus]

And Xenophon more or less confirms this rough number for the Persians which no other Greek author does afaik, this speaks against his anti-Persians agenda, at least at the time he wrote the Cyropaedia or due to new Persian information he got by that time.

Unless scholarship has passed me by recently, Anabasis was written sometime during the 370s or 360s. The Cyropaedia is generally slated at sometime in the 360s. In Anabasis Xenophon assigns Cyrus some 115,900 and Artaxerxes 900,000 (subratcting 300,000 for the tardy bastard Abrocomas).

Perhaps, though, the point of Anabasis may be summed up by quoting (III.2.24f)

I am certain that the King would offer the Myesians all the guides they wanted and would give them numbers of hostages to guarantee his good faith in sending them out of the country and would actually build roads for them, even though they wanted to go away in four horse chariots. And I am sure he would be three times as pleased to do all this for us, if he saw that we were planning to stay here. No, what I am really afraid of is that, if we once learn to live a life of ease and luxury, enjoying the company of these fine great women, the wives and the daughters of these Medes and Persians, we might be like the Lotus-Eaters and forget the road home. So I think it is right and reasonable to make it our first endeavour to reach our own folk in Greece and to demonstrate to the Geeks that their poverty is of their own choosing, since they might see people who have a wretched life in their own countries grow rich by coming out here.

Ahh...music to Isocrates' ears. All of it is there: that the King would gladly supply guides and roads to help these valiant and unbeatable Greeks home; the beautiful women; the luxury; the effete Persians who cannot hold their own possessions and, most crucially, Hellenic lebensraum in the Persian east.

Xenophon would set about this with....almost gusto...under Dercyllidas and then with his hero, Agesilaos. Unfortunately, for the panhellenists, the despotic Great King had one characteristic of nobility in abundance: gold and silver. In quick succession Spartan aggrandisement was brought to heel with Cnidus and war in Greece.

It did not behove Xenophon's virtuous Spartans to attempt a reneging on the terms of their alliance with the King. When the dust settled it would be the "peace of Antalcidas" that would baldy assert the King's price of Spartan hegemony: the cities of Asia. Not that Xenophon wished to write of it.