For CRISPVS - embossed pugio picture

[Tarbicus]

Can't read German, but it looks like an embossed pugio plate to me:

TO BE SEEN HERE (see next post)

Very nice, if it is real, but alas no provenance. Bronze and iron. Click on the photo for a nice large image. Is it the one recently under discussion? Where any of the type B found before this one (mid-19th-C)? If not, then how would it be a copy/fake.

[Tarbicus]

Oh dear, it's session based.

When the page goes to the Search page, in the search field (Volltext-Suche) type dolch. You'll see it there.

Be sure to click on the small photo to get a nice high rez version.

[Martin Moser]

Yes, I've seen it also. From what I can gleam from the pic my best guess would be that it's a fake. I know from medical instruments that towards the end of the 19th century such a thing would not have been uncommon. Mind you, for a fake it's not a bad one in terms of form, element spacing etc. Also, there are a few rather uncommon daggers around (Titelberg e.g.). Unfortunately it seems that the item is lost (Objektstatus: nicht vorhanden), so most probably we'll never know ...

EDIT: Nowhere near you Jim, but just saw that's my 1000th posting here - party tonight! :-) )

[Tarbicus]

Mind you, for a fake it's not a bad one in terms of form, element spacing etc.

That's what makes me have my doubts about it being a fake. The rivet holes are perfect, and, as you say, everything else. It's only the actual decoration that is unusual. It certainly doesn't look like anything on Trajan's Column et al, which seems to have been the inspiration for so many fakes. The temple motif - common on pugiones and seen on helmets.

I don't know. I think this is being discounted far too easily simply because the decoration is raised. Let's face it, that is the only oddity.

EDIT: Nowhere near you Jim, but just saw that's my 1000th posting here - party tonight! :-) )

LOL Enjoy!

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

The text says it's made of iron and bronze. Why not a normal B pugio with a soldered bronze implements? Fake? A originality? Who knows...

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

you mean this:



well I for one think it might well be real.

M.VIB.M.

[Crispvs]

I can't see anything in the link Tarbicus put up but looking at the picture posted above (asuming it is the same one) my gut instinct is to say, like Martin, that it is probably a nineteenth century fake. If so though it would be a reasonably well informed fake. The decoration is unlike that of any other sheaths I know of but there are some unique examples and embossing was certainly something they were capable of. Like Cesar I can't really be sure without a proper x-ray or metalurgical analysis.

The embossing is not the only unusual element of the design. There are no borders to any of the decorative fields such as we would normally see, although again, that does not necessarily make it an automatic fake.

Crispvs

[C. Apollonius Priscus]

Is it embossed or cast? It looks too thin to be cast but the lower right side edging looks like cast sections have broken off - unless the restorers have filled in the missing areas so that they look flat.

[maarten]

Its neither embossed nor cast. The figures are soldered on to the plate. Is its real?. I don't know.
From the 45 dagger scabbards from Holland I have so far seen, only one has soldering. Its the Leeuwen scabbard which has pearl bands soldered on the edges. Close examination showes traces of solder even on the scabbard indicating something more was soldered on, perhaps figures like this one from Kleve.

For cross reverence to the Dutch dagger scabbards any information about dagger scabbards is welcome

Maarten

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I was going to agree tha tthe decoration is soldered on, but also that it is a similar feature on the Brass neidermormter...could it be related, if it is real? In as much as it need not be fake as it is so uncommon... :?:

[Tarbicus]

Its the Leeuwen scabbard which has pearl bands soldered on the edges. Close examination showes traces of solder even on the scabbard indicating something more was soldered on, perhaps figures like this one from Kleve.

Interesting. Very interesting.

[Crispvs]

Yes,

Thanks very much for that Maarten.

By the way, I will try to sort out some pictures of British pugio finds for you as I promised some time ago. Send me a PM with your address and I will put something in the post for you.

Crispvs