Late Hoplites appearence

[geala]

@ Aryaman2: the pilos was in use in the 3rd c. BC for sure. I saw grave stelae from the time with it, both with cheek guards and without. And in the "Macedonian Silver Shields" thread a picture from the 2nd c. BC with Greek phalangites with pilos helmet was posted by MeinPanzer; I was astonished about the long lasting use.

The aspis remained in use even after the introduction of the thyreos, for poleis who did not adopt the pike/pelte and/or thyreos. At least you can see it in some hellenistic pictures.

@ Zenodorus: what would be the source for the use of footwear in battle for the Spartans?

@ Johnny: the best idea for a Plataia picture would indeed be (like Giannis said) the ultimate struggle between the Spartans and the Persian infantry, perhaps the moment when the Spartans broke through the shieldwall.

However, the Persian Wars are boring, you should choose a theme from the Peloponesian War or, better yet, Pyrrhos campaign in Italy or Sicily (opportunity to show elephants in the background -I like elephants!- or Carthaginians). :wink:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Do not ever dare say again that the Persian Wars are boring :evil: :lol:
By the way,Bonnie,Kleombrotus's pilos has indeed transverse crest. And Spartans had indeed a hight percentage of blonde.
Khairete
Giannis

[Johnny Shumate]

I think the Spartans smashing through the Persian wicker shield wall would be nice.

Maybe I'll do that....

Johnny

[PMBardunias]

I think the Spartans smashing through the Persian wicker shield wall would be nice.

Hey Johnny,

I think Connoly did a piece like that, but from a perspective looking along the line perpendicular to the two battlelines. For the sake of symmetry, and to comfort the shades of my ancestors after the Leuktra illustration, the prespective of a persian soldier seeing spartans hack and push their way through the pavises of the sparabara might be nice.

[PMBardunias]

Though I would have expected some footwear on the Spartans, some more organized hair

I think Leuktra would surely qualify as a "bad hair day" for the Spartiates. As to the footwear, we know the spartans famously fought barefoot, I know of no evidence for change at this date, while the Thebans were known for their little sandal/boots.

[PMBardunias]

Again the details are significant,the broken ground from their pushing feet,the use of the laconian sword,the fact that the spartan line in places is only 1one-3 ranks etc.

We had to make the ranks shallow to create a lane for the king's withdrawal so the ranks had to be thin. As you note they must have been thinned in light of the vicious nature of the combat in any case. I was worried about the image not conveying the depth of the spartans, but Johnny came through with a bit of genius in the form of the shadows of rear rank men showing on the ground signifying that the ranks are deeper off to the right.

The image is actualy packed with little details (I drove him crazy with them I'm sure). Just a few of the key ones are the manner of overlap as you saw, the way the rear men might use the spear to lean on, the way the aspis rested on the chest and thighs, the fact that the men could stab over the "v" formed by overlapped shields and how vicious the laconian sword would be in this situation, The use of a broken spear and sauroter, The position of the sword scabbards up in the crook of the arm and the hollow of the aspis where they can be drawn even in the press, the Crushed face of the boetian shield and the fact that it is Theban showing that the Spartans have pushed the Thebans back and not been steam-rollered from the field. There are more I'm sure that I am forgetting.

[Zenodoros]

As to the footwear, we know the spartans famously fought barefoot, I know of no evidence for change at this date, while the Thebans were known for their little sandal/boots.

sorry, this is kind of a bump, but we don't "famously know" that the Spartans fought barefoot, only that they were barefoot (and also completely naked) in the agoge. On the battlefield, as far as we know it would have been a different story, with weapons and arrows scattered all over the ground. I think I've read here that Greek sandals were good at preventing foot injury.

I wouldn't say that there were never any soldiers that fought barefoot, seems likely to me - but there isn't really anything that distinguishes the Spartans as being barefoot in battle, is there? You could go with art, but that usually heroically depicts barefoot warriors.

There have been a bunch of threads on this already, I think - so it doesn't really need to be a thing, could be worth having a look at them again.

[hoplite14gr]

sorry, this is kind of a bump, but we don't "famously know" that the Spartans fought barefoot, only that they were barefoot (and also completely naked) in the agoge. On the battlefield, as far as we know it would have been a different story, with weapons and arrows scattered all over the ground. I think I've read here that Greek sandals were good at preventing foot injury.

I have posted a picture of these "sandal iron shods" on the Greek footware thread.
Yes ancient had tougher feet but campaigning in unknown terrain barefoot..hmmm

Kind regards

[geala]

You can never talk to much about a subject. :wink:

I believe that many or all depictions of naked warriors fell in the category of heroic and/or erotic nudity but I have a problem with "heroic naked feet" on a guy with chiton, cuirass and helmet. In Roman art the absence of shoes (if not painted in and just faded) may be a sign of divinity. But this is hardly true for Greek art, given the number of barefoot warriors in 5th and 4th c. depictions. And we have pictures of Greek warriors with and without shoes and it would be a problem to decide why one is shown barefoot, the other not.

The problem with the sharp material on the battlefield is a reasonable argument but may be a bit exaggerated, arrows and javelins for example would normally stick in the ground or lie flat. Shaka Zulu in the 19th c. urged his warriors to stay away from their sandals and fight barefoot (because you can move faster and safer in this way), and he was not a fool I think, so it may be possible to run barefoot over a battlefield.

The feeling "I would/could not do it, because it is impractical or impossible from my experience or thoughts, so they did not do it" is often a good correction for interpretations or sometimes the only way to solve problems, but in this case I think Johnnys/Pauls different interpretation is probable and convincing.

[hoplite14gr]

Well I repsect with your resevations on a fully "sodden" army but except shoes I object to the general idea that hoplites were "armorless" in the late classical period. The non-armored complement of an army might have increased by that time but still close order infantry would make any effort to armor themselves. Elite close order troops would be more armored tham the rest.

Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

The feeling "I would/could not do it, because it is impractical or impossible from my experience or thoughts, so they did not do it" is often a good correction for interpretations or sometimes the only way to solve problems, but in this case I think Johnnys/Pauls different interpretation is probable and convincing.

Thanks There are "heroically nude" images of Boetians that clearly show the little ankle sandals we put them in, but none that I know of for spartans in this period. If someone has such an image of spartans please share it.