Late Hoplites appearence

[Aryaman2]

What would be the outfit of late hoplites (Late IV-III centuries)?
Would the shield be smaller? any references/images?

[PMBardunias]

I don't think you will find better than Johnny's image of Leuktra- and I don't only say that because I advised on it :wink:

http://community.imaginefx.com/fxpose/j ... ginal.aspx

[geala]

The picture is nice but depicted are mainly Lakedaimonians and Leuktra was already 371 BC. :wink:

Unfortunately the pictoral evidence dwindles for the mentioned timeframe. From what can be seen I took the conclusion that hoplite equipment remained more or less the same as in the late 5th c. BC (some changes in style). Perhaps the hoplites started to wear more armour again in the second half of the 4th c., but this is debatable, perhaps they never stopped to wear it. In the 3rd c. the thyreos (oval shield) came into use, certainly with new tactics connected, but aspides were used also after this.

[Paullus Scipio]

Wolfgang wrote
"Perhaps the hoplites started to wear more armour again in the second half of the 4th c., but this is debatable, perhaps they never stopped to wear it. "

....Hoplites in Xenophon's time certainly included armoured examples , as we are told many times. Nor did Spartans cease wearing armour. Cleombrotus' co-king Agesilaus, we are told, was wounded "through his armour".I think it unlikely that Cleombrotus was unarmoured or wore a 'Pilos' helmet ( no one can say for certain). Nor were Spartan helmets exclusively cheap 'Pilos' types....our view is distorted by the little iconography that survives, just as it is distorted by pottery images of Gods and Heroes earlier. I strongly suspect, as Wolfgang suggests, that in both eras the gamut of Hoplite panoplies ran from 'cheap' helmet, spear, shield and possibly dagger/ sword at the lower end, to crested helmet, spear shield, heroic bronze cuirass, fancy sword in classical times and 'late' times both. In earlier times, even heavier panoplies existed with arm, leg and foot armour.But it is doubtful if any state became completely un-armoured despite what the iconography suggests......but the evidence is insufficient to be certain!

[hoplite14gr]

It was a gradual progress.

In the archaic period the hoplites abandoned the arm and thigh protection because it was not justifying its cost in the phalanx formation.

During the late Peloponesian War the city states that were most actively engaged lost their resources and most of their artisans. Add to the fact that most operations were naval raids and even if they had armor it was not necessary to carry it with them.

This does nor mean that the armor was non-existand or that that late period battles were fought by "armorless" troops.

The change of tactics and the import of "foreign" resources during the Hellenistic period saw changes on the armor too.

Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

Nor did Spartans cease wearing armour. Cleombrotus' co-king Agesilaus, we are told, was wounded "through his armour".

I left him unarmored because we do not know what type of armor he might have been wearing. There are not many references to body armor in infantry from this period, but cavalry had never abandoned it, often wearing bronze thorakes to make up for the lack of shield.

I think it unlikely that Cleombrotus was unarmoured or wore a 'Pilos' helmet ( no one can say for certain). Nor were Spartan helmets exclusively cheap 'Pilos' types

I'm not sure what you are basing this on. The "cheapness" of the pilos is overated as a reason why it was worn. The pilos was quite fashionable in this period and rich men wore them. The power of civilian fashion on the military can be seen in early modern cavalry, where perfectly good opened-faced helmets were abandoned in favor of "secrets" beneath civilian hats or even such hats rendered in metal. I actually had a hard time finding images of Boetian hoplites in this period wearing "boetian" helmets! Though many wear the pilos. We put them in anyway to differentiate the forces.

All that said I agree that any phalanx was much more motley than what we show, but remember this is a clash of the Sacred band and the Hippeis. If any group could pull off uniformity it was these two.

[geala]

Then I didn't get the idea when I saw Johnnys picture first some time ago - I did not notice that the Sacred Band is depicted in case of the Thebans. Should then not also some slightly younger men be visible? :wink:

The armour or no armour or little armour debate is non-detachable, I fear. I believe that less wealthy hoplites perhaps never wore much body armour, perhaps leather jerkins or leather chitons (protective clothing for peasant work), that also some wealthier hoplites stopped wearing cuirasses in the chaos of the Peloponesian war, but not all or the majority. In Sicily a few months ago I saw some grave stelae of the early 3rd c., with some soldiers with armour and some without. The use of armour seemed to be a question of wealth, feeling of comfort, bravery, fear and other individual reasons.

Atm I just remember three relatively clear hints about "armour-no armour" that deal with more than individuals: one mention in the Anabasis by Xenophon about the Cretan Archers, the supply of cuirasses for a part of Alexanders troops near India and the fine catalogue for the late Macedonian phalangites. It is a bit ot, but please add more.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The art is perfect. Not many painters have dared depict a hoplite battle showing the pushing and the mess. Since there is no appropriate thread I'll comment it here. Again the details are significant,the broken ground from their pushing feet,the use of the laconian sword,the fact that the spartan line in places is only 1one-3 ranks etc. I'd like some of them wearing armour and some different type helmets,chalcidian or even corinthian...and Kleombrotus aught wear a cuirass. It'd be more accurate to guess what that would have looked like,than don't show it at all,since it is mentioned by Xenophon.
And Paul B I see your influence was not only in the matter of the overlapping (good to see a representation of it by the way) but also in the use of the ropes! Needless to say I disagree with this theory and that I'd prefer them loose.
All in all,it is one of my favorite paintings because it shows the phalanxes in action. Johny,I'd love to see from your hand similar situations of the battle of Plataia and a typical hoplite battle in the late 6th century.
Khairete
Giannis

[Aryaman2]

Ok, armour range from bronzze to textile
What about helmets, was Pylos still fashionable in the 3rd century?
and shields? aspis of good size?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Sorry of the off-topic.Johny,don't tell me you designed the right foot of the white crested Spartan after that foot outline on marble found I think in Ephesos? :lol:
Khaire
Giannis

[Johnny Shumate]

Giannis,
Ha! Funny about the foot! No, that's my foot as I posed in the photograph that I used for the illustration.

I've been contacted by a client in Virgina that will need some illustrations from the Greek and Persian Wars. I will do an illustration of the battle of Plataea. Maybe the Spartans killing Mardonius?

Johnny

[Paullus Scipio]

Inaki wrote:-

Ok, armour range from bronze to textile

....or none at all, as illustrated in Paul B's article, and shown on many contemporary stele....

What about helmets, was Pylos still fashionable in the 3rd century?

Difficult to say.....it appears in the 5th century b.c. and certainly still appears in Italy in the 3rd century b.c., where it appears to have been replaced by similar shaped Montefortino types. Similar conical shaped helmets are also depicted in Spanish/Carthaginian contexts in the 3rd century b.c. It was certainly used in the army of Alexander, and possibly later into early Hellenistic times.......I don't think it is possible to determine when it disappears altogether. :?

and shields? aspis of good size?

...Aspides continued in use in Greece until at least until the mid-third century, when replacement with the Gallic style Thyreos (after the Gallic invasions) takes place. This in turn tends to be replaced in Greece by Macedonian style pelte and sarissa. The Aspis, by its very nature, must be made to fit each individual's forearm, so its size stayed uniform throughout its usage...
Johnny wrote:-

I will do an illustration of the battle of Plataea. Maybe the Spartans killing Mardonius?

....small correction, that would be the Athenians killing Masistius......

[hoplite14gr]

Athens National Museum pilos dates late 4th century.
Army Museum pilos dates from 3rd same as an example found in Egypt and is apearing in English books.
"Attik" is on Pergamon Alexnder sarkophagus and there are late Italiotic examples of the "Chalkidik"

As for Platea a helot slinger behind the kneeling Spartans whacked Mardonius! Herodotus saved his name for us ARIMNISTOS (remebered by Ares)

Kind regards

[Zenodoros]

Not much to add to this thread, but I hadn't seen the Leuktra picture, very cool! Though I would have expected some footwear on the Spartans, some more organized hair (at least they aren't all dirty and yucky like the Osprey depiction) and possibly more variety of costume than just chitons and pilos helmets, and possibly a transverse crest for Kleombrotos? Also, I like that there's a blonde Spartan, it's actually quite refreshing. :lol: But my favourite thing about the picture is the detail you put into those hands and feet, wow.

It will be very interesting to see how you tackle Spartan uniform for the Persian Wars, Johnny. Linothorax, bronze cuirasses, or a mixture? Can't wait!

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The answer is that there was no uniformity...The Athenians killing Masistios would be nice but it would probably show a party broken phalanx. On the other hand, classical Spartans is a favourite theme...nad locked shields usualy allow for less details able to be shown,about their body equipment I mean. What about the clash between the Persians and Spartans?This must have been the ultimate test for both troops and a very violent strugle.
Can't wait for it!
Khaire
Giannis

PS.You're right,Johny,it is not exactly the same as yours
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id ... 218&size=l