11-03-2007, 10:58 PM
This debate could, of course, go on indefinitely, like so many others because of our lack of imfomation, and so many 'possibles'.For what it is worth, I believe the formation drawn by Robert approximates the 'correct' Hoplite fighting formation - left foot thrown forward, shields at a slight angle, overlapping slightly....on occasions, slightly tighter or slightly looser formations could be and were used. ( first suggested by me after meticulous research 30 yeayrs ago on p.34 of "Warfare in the Classical World" -- noother model I have seen before or since fits the evidence better ). I am not going to go into reasons here, other than to say that I have studied the subject for over 35 years, during which time I have carefully studied the physical dimensions and characteristics of ancient battlefields as well as the size of troop deployments ( something seemingly few others have done, apparently).
Giannis said:-
Sorry, Giannis, but this is simply incorrect. We are told in the sources that Hoplites generally stood 8 or 12 deep ( less on occasion, more for e.g. Thebans). We are also told in the few surviving manuals that 'open' order is the 'natural' order and has no special name, that the phalanx normally 'closed up' to close order, shields touching/overlapping to fight, and that when a desperate defence demanded it, an even closer formation with only 18" front per man could be utilised ( overlapped shields). There are two ways to interpret '8deep' - either it means open or closed formation. The moment you put this onto physical battlefields it becomes apparent that formations '8 deep' or '12 deep' must mean in open order, which then closed up, halving its depth, just before action.This also makes much more sense from an efficiency point of view as well. Only a Macedonian phalanx generally formed up 16 deep, in open order, and then closed up to '8 deep', close order to fight.
I have pointed in the right direction, let everyone else do the research before responding.
)
Giannis said:-
Quote:First they formed a 16 deep phalanx in loose order and then the 8 rear came to the front.
Sorry, Giannis, but this is simply incorrect. We are told in the sources that Hoplites generally stood 8 or 12 deep ( less on occasion, more for e.g. Thebans). We are also told in the few surviving manuals that 'open' order is the 'natural' order and has no special name, that the phalanx normally 'closed up' to close order, shields touching/overlapping to fight, and that when a desperate defence demanded it, an even closer formation with only 18" front per man could be utilised ( overlapped shields). There are two ways to interpret '8deep' - either it means open or closed formation. The moment you put this onto physical battlefields it becomes apparent that formations '8 deep' or '12 deep' must mean in open order, which then closed up, halving its depth, just before action.This also makes much more sense from an efficiency point of view as well. Only a Macedonian phalanx generally formed up 16 deep, in open order, and then closed up to '8 deep', close order to fight.
I have pointed in the right direction, let everyone else do the research before responding.
)
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
