Where\'s the seam on the tongue Pteruges? (Subarmalis)

[Magnus]

Thanks guys!

[C. Apollonius Priscus]

Greetings!

Since Antonius piqued my interest in pteruges, I happened to be at the Getty Villa in Malibu last week and what did I run into? A first century Roman lorica musculata torso from the time of Domitian! While I would have given it some interest normally, I would not have taken as many photos of the pteruges as I did. Here are a couple of photos (if it works) of the beautifully sculpted torso showing what appear to be leather tongue pteruges. The sculptor did a wonderful job. I would be interested in the symbology of the ornaments on the tongue pteruges if someone could enlighten me.

The link to my Photobucket folder is also below and includes many more shots of the musculata and various helmets and armor at the museum. There is a particularly nice triple disc chestplate and several interesting helmets. There is also a Greek tombstone showing an eagle hilted sword in a civilian context.

http://s107.photobucket.com/albums/m294 ... 162/Villa/

I prefer the plain look although the decoration may have been painted on


Note the stitching

[Magnus]

Cool details in that picture Alan. Thanks a lot for that.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Nice work on the pteruges Magnus! You guys have voices some of the questions have been pondering! Laudes to you both for the work and investigation! 8)

ps. something else I just noticed, was the lack of the rank ribbon tied around the torso! I guess the imperial family decided they were above that?

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Still scratching my head on this one as there seem to be many combonations but... what makes most sense to me is…

1. The first row of Tongue Pteruges are soft leather, which are one piece, just below the lorica muscle cuirass.

2. There is often a second set of Tongue Pteruges, sometimes made of metal, with long edge to edge hinges.

3. That second belt of Tongue Pteruges is below, behind and attached to the first. When made of metal, as in some examples, they have hinges so they would bend when the wearer was sitting or riding his horse.

4. On the first belt of Tongue Pteruges , what looks like hinges, above each of the softer leather Tongue Pteruges, is the attachment point of the second belt underneath.


The example Priscus posted above and this one below seem to show two short rows of Tongue Pteruges, both most likely made of leather (no hinges only attachment points)





This example shows two rows where the second longer row appears to be made from metal, the second row has edge to edge hinges. There are attachment points on the shorter first row of what seems to be softer leather Tongue Pteruges





Other times, there are appear to be combonations... here the top layer of Tongue Pteruges appears extra long and hinged.




When there is only one row of shorter, most likely leather Tongue Pteruges, the attachment points are still there, most likely as decoration. Such as in this example:
[url:3pjo4jcu]http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica/images/luciusverusloricatadet2a.jpg[/url]

[AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs]

Ave,

Thanks Priscus for the up close photos! Laudes!

I do again see that every example nearly always seems to be one solid belt of Tongue Pteruges...the Tongue Pteruges are never separate individual pieces but instead nearly always all together cut from one continuous piece.

I’ve been struggling with replicating this aspect of my Subarmails and following the anatomical shape of the lower abdominal of my lorica muscle cuirass but… I think … I think I finally got it… I think. :roll:

I’ll post a how to make a one piece Tongue Pteruges thread once I get the appliqués on… it’s not perfect but, I think I came close to what the statues look like. I do still need to add the hinges or hinge-like decoration though.

Then once I get the Tongue Pteruges sewn onto the Subarmails, complete the waist and shoulder Pteruges, and get everything to all line up… I’ll post a Subarmails three too.

[C. Apollonius Priscus]

In regards to the details of the image that I posted, the first (top) layer of tongue pteruges appears to be one contiguous piece but I don't think that this would be practical. I didn't see a seam in the back and I still think that it could be tied at back centerline. Given the attention of the sculptor to detail though, I am still not sure. I think the stitching on the tongue pteruges shows a couple of possibilities. It's possible that the leather is doubled underneath the tongues only and the stitching shows two pieces that are joined. Perhaps the rolled edge represents a piece of edge binding -presumably in a contrasting color - or a single piece with an edge binding.

If the ornaments on the pteruges were made of metal, I would think that they would then be fastened through the first layer of leather by rivets or by clenching pins or the like cast onto the ornament. This would then be covered with another layer of leather and the edge would be bound.

Anthony, I also agree with you in that what appear to be hinges at the top of the leather first tongue layer are some sort of fastening/fancy stitching fastening the two layers together. My only concern would be that it may affect mobility in some way when joined in this fashion. It would be nice to test it. It also appears that there are many different variations in designer loricas. "I hear that Apollodorus the Greek is coming out with a new line of loricae that have an Etruscan flair this year!", "Slim is in with the newly redesigned style of contoured, body-hugging lorica for the well-appointed equestrian" "Glam is the catchword with the new hinged tongue pteruges made of GENUINE BRONZE that jingle when you walk, impress the women and awe your enemies as you pass!"...