Greek Helmet/ armour database

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Really nice,with the quality of Manning Imperial i see! Congratulations. You're going for a Carthaginian impression? Waiting for photos of it worn!
Khaire
Giannis

[barcid]

Hi Mate Yes very happy with it ,Ill be using it for my Krimisos 341 bce impression ,Ill order my plumage next week then some more pics. 8)

[Dany Boy]

Very interesting topic from which I’ve learn a lot.
Talking about Corinthian helmets two of them which were found in Bulgaria are now part from national museums collections.
If I have to be honest I am still new in ancient history and I was surprised to find this information in this very interesting book about the Ancient Thracian warriors!Author
Ivo Yonovski
Illustrations
Radoslav Georgiev
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This very interesting book I happen to have in my modest collection is unfortunately only in Bulgarian language but I have the feeling we’ll see very soon even better and more pictures book in English from the same outer and the same artist!
That what may seem to you interesting is the photos of two corinthian helmets fount in Bulgaria and we can see them in our museums![attachment=3:1dktt4wa]<!-- ia3 IMG_4272.JPG<!-- ia3 [/attachment:1dktt4wa][attachment=0:1dktt4wa]<!-- ia0 IMG_4274.JPG<!-- ia0 [/attachment:1dktt4wa][attachment=1:1dktt4wa]<!-- ia1 IMG_4273.JPG<!-- ia1 [/attachment:1dktt4wa]
Of course no doubt so many others Corinthian helmets we fount from treasure hunters in Bulgaria but we don’t know anything of their history unfortunately.
One of them is positioned in National Museum of History in Sofia
http://archaeology-knigi.com/160
http://www.historymuseum.org/collection.php
The another on is The National Museum of Military History in Sofia
http://www.vi-books.com/vis/vis4/vis4_1/19_shlem.htm
http://www.militarymuseum.bg/eng/index.html
And there are is another one belongs to privet collection in town Ruse-Bulgaria.
About the last one my brother will investigate further and we’ll share the information we hope to get from the respectable businessmen who has this particular privet collection!

[Dany Boy]

I hope you wouldn’t mind if I share some more from this wonderful pages of the book I was talking about!
Thanks
Jordan[attachment=0:1a7o8q78]<!-- ia0 IMG_4279.JPG<!-- ia0 [/attachment:1a7o8q78][attachment=1:1a7o8q78]<!-- ia1 IMG_4277.JPG<!-- ia1 [/attachment:1a7o8q78][attachment=2:1a7o8q78]<!-- ia2 IMG_4278.JPG<!-- ia2 [/attachment:1a7o8q78][attachment=4:1a7o8q78]<!-- ia4 IMG_4275.JPG<!-- ia4 [/attachment:1a7o8q78][attachment=3:1a7o8q78]<!-- ia3 IMG_4276.JPG<!-- ia3 [/attachment:1a7o8q78]

[Virilis]

Thanks Dany boy! This book seems to be a "must" have !

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

Hello
Thucydides in his account of the Battle of Pylos mentions that the Spartans' felt helmets were not able to withstand the arrows. I wonder what these felt helmets would have looked like. Can someone post a pic pleeeeeese?!!!

Imad

[Paullus Scipio]

Whilst 'pilos' originally referred to the Peloponnesian peasant's felt cap, by Thucydides time it also referred to a bronze helmet of identical shape, and it is these 'pilos' helmets - which became very popular in the Lakedaemonian, Macedonian and other Greek armies. In similar fashion, the Boeotian peasant cap - slightly different from the Peloponnesian style, also became a common bronze helmet type. Even the 'petasos', a broad-brimmed sun-hat was turned into a bronze helmet.

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

Thanks Paul. Now why would that not be able to withstand arrows? Is it different in strength and constituency from the regular hoplite bronze helmet?

[Paullus Scipio]

No, it is no different to other Greek helmets in strength or materials. The reason they "could not keep out the arrows" is obvious enough. Since they sat on top of the head, they provided no protection at all for face or neck - unlike other types such as the Corinthian or Chalcidic, with their mask, nasals, cheek-pieces and neck-guards. The downside of the latter were that they were hot, stuffy and limited hearing. Incidently,Thucydides also goes on to add that the Spartans were also discomfited by the broken shafts of javelins stuck in their shields/armour...

There are those who believe the word 'piloi', since it can mean either the original felt cap, or the identically shaped bronze helmet, does mean 'felt cap' in this instance, based on the fact that they "could not keep out arrows", but I think that there is no need for such a postulation to explain matters - it is far more likely that helmets are meant, since they are worn by hoplites.....

[Gladius Hispaniensis]

Lol. Of course. How silly of me.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

It's possible that Paul is correct,but on the other hand we shouldn't ignore the many depictions of hoplites ready for battle,or actually fighting, holding or wearing a clearly soft pilos. So,we know that hoplites did fight in them,so what evidence do we have that the Spartans in Sphacteria didn't? Nothing but our willingness to imagine bronze clad Spartans,and our "dissapointment" that they had already abandoned the more fearsome closed helmets and perhaps even body armour.
In my imagination, there were both bronze and felt caps among the Spartans and the combined disadvantages of their bronze and felt versions were what made Thucydides point out their ineffectiveness against arrows. Which were more common, we can't know. And certainly not all of them wore the pilos helmet.
Khaire
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

Depictions of 'Hoplites' actually fighting wearing just 'soft' piloi????

I don't think I have ever seen this - could you post some images, please?

Outside battle, we know that 'Hoplites' often wore arming caps under their helmets, and I think this the likely explanation for the rare 'piloi' that can be interpreted as 'soft' ( and even then there is doubt often whether 'soft' or hard is being depicted........)

I would certainly agree that it is unlikely that Spartans of this or any other era were 'unformly' equipped.

As to 'bronze clad Spartans' it is my belief these likely all but disappeared prior to the Persian Wars in favour of Tube-and-Yoke armours, as elsewhere in Greece....

The idea that Spartans 'abandoned' body armour is a certain "Myth", and in all likelihood so is the idea that they used only the 'pilos'......

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I post only photos of hoplites,meaning men with big shield and spear. These,together with some sculptures that show hoplites sqweezing their caps and carrying spear and shield,and combined with the account that in the Poikile stoa the Plataeans wore boeotian caps, makes it all possible that some hoplites entered battle in soft piloi. I remind that not one boeotian cap has been found in bronze, before the late 4th century bc. And their early form was considerably different than the later bronze ones.
You may rule out the possibility that some hoplites didn't wear body armour,but given the frequency of its depiction,i can't be sure that all ranks of hoplites had fully equiped men. And if some didn't wear body armour,why not also a felt cap instead of a bronze one?
Khaire
Giannis

[Dan Howard]

So how can you tell from a drawing whether the helmet is hard or soft? You need the mystical powers of D'Amato to do that Why can't asymetry simply mean that the carver was sloppy, or that he was trying something with perspective that didn't work properly, or that the helmet really was asymetrical?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

In my opinion,all of the drawings i posted have little chances to be showing metal piloi. It's very hard to show a soft matterial in a way different than the first picture,for instance. And even if white colour was being used for metal,this was done mainly in 4th century Apulian vases,which also had some yellowish shade in them. In mainland greece,white colour has been used very rarely comparatively,and is used either to indicate female skin, white horses, white tube and yoke cuirasses, and other than that, very few other details like some decorative dots or shield designs. Not bronze,like in later Apulian vases. So the white pilos of the third image is not only asymetrical,but it's white when for instance the shield rim isn't. And it's clearly of greek style of the late 5th century.
Now,i guess you were referring mainly to the last photo of the grave stele. Well,it's true that we can't know for sure, but given the fact that felt piloi were worn by hoplites in late fifth century, and also depicted on other grave stelae (i.e. Osprey pub. "Greek Hoplite" p.58 Megarean grave stele 420-410bc) then if i see two asymetrical piloi on two other hoplites dressed in exactly the same fashion, i say that there are far more chances that these helmets were also meant to be felt.
Khaire
Giannis