Making Pteruges (or at least trying to make Pteruges!)

[Materfamillias]

Yep, why would a Roman have used leather? Think about it. He would have had to go to the trouble of tanning it, then dying it. What for? It is useless as an armor. Linen and felt, on the other hand, have proven properties as armor.

If leather is so useless as armour then why is it so difficult to cut? Anybody with any leatherworking experience will know how difficult it is to pierce anything but the thinnest leather. Leatherworking requires an array of sharp tools to get the job done properly. It's not going to be completely sword/spear proof, but I can't see how it would be inferior to linen or felt. Used in combination as part of an overall armour package, I don't see any reason why leather should be considered inferior.

[Tarbicus]

If leather is so useless as armour then why is it so difficult to cut?

The necessary thickness required counts it out as defensive pteryges, IMHO. You certainly wouldn't see them hang as seen in sculptures. I can cut 3mm thick leather with dressmaking scissors (I literally just did it to make sure :wink: )

[madoc]

I can cut 3mm thick leather with dressmaking scissors (I literally just did it to make sure )

scissors ?
Two ultra-sharp, very thin, modern steel blades acting in such a way to give a mechanical cutting advantage ?? Whew - lucky those britons weren't armed with those as they will shred laminated linen and probably scales as well !!!!! The ultimate weapon !


Seriously, put your piece of leather against a surface with a bit of give in it (such as pillow) and then use your sharp gladius to attempt a cut with BOTH the edge and the point (as it is, after all, a cutting and stabbing sword).

As to the Doncaster shield .... I did say "more likely"...

[Tarbicus]

Regardless of my reply to a leatherworking comment, the necessary thickness of leather needed to act as a defensive garment, i.e. pteryges, just doesn't look like what we see in portrait sculpture.

I can see it acting fine as a shield layer to help strengthen the structure, just not as a flexible armour to help protect the appropriate body parts and looking like the evidence, while being thick enough to do the job.

[madoc]

I can see it acting fine as a shield layer to help strengthen the structure, just not as a flexible armour to help protect the appropriate body parts and looking like the evidence, while being thick enough to do the job.

In _your_ opinion, which what this all boils down to.

I repeat my earlier assertion that I do not believe there is any find of these items, so nobody knows for sure. It looks like, re-reading this entire thread, that many chaps have made theirs from a variety of materials using a variety of styles and construction methods. Surely each is valid, if it emulates the pictorial evidence ?

AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs makes his out of machine sewn cotton and that's fantastic . Martin makes his out of leather and it's not ?? Do I detect a teensy, weensy bit of bloodymindedness and maybe some inter-group sniping ?

I can confirm that dressmaking scissors will cut one of my brass scales in two. Therefore, I am abandoning it as effectively useless and moving to lorica as I cannot cut that ...

I am now officially bored with this and moving to something more interesting.

[Tarbicus]

Just to set the record straight, I'm not even in a group, and as far as I'm concerned anyone can do what they want with whatever they want. But if they ask "What do you think?", and I don't agree, ... blah blah.

I just don't like it when someone says, "This shield is Roman." when there are those as or more qualified who say, "We don't know." I think it's reasonable to point that out. Maybe a bit bloody minded, or perhaps I just don't agree with you.

I am now officially bored with this and moving to something more interesting.

Officially bored? Thanks very much for coming down to my level in the first place, I'm sure it must have been very demeaning.

[MartinWard]

Paolo

hadn't considered making linen pteruges the way you describe, you have opened my eyes a little there. thank you

[Magnus]

I am now officially bored with this and moving to something more interesting.

John, if you can't play nicely...well you know how the rest of that expression goes. Your entire arguments are based on your opinion, yet when people express theirs backed up by evidence you deviate from the topic, or use examples which are not contemporary. You deflect and redirect so that you don't have to address the points that people bring up. That hardly seems logical. And it makes you come across as being a bit petty.

If you have no desire to enter debates with anything more than your own opinion, be prepared to have it challenged. Bring evidence and your stock goes up. So far you have not done this.

The use of leather has already been explained over and over, as to when and for what it was used for.

Yes, thick leather was great for armour, the japanese used it extensively in their yoroi. However, if you can prove that leather shield covers (your original post here) or your deviation that pteryges were that thick of leather, then by all means do so. If you can prove the shield cover was for protection, then do so. Simply saying over and over that you think they were leather is a far cry from being good enough for evidence.

[thecrocman (anton)]

Yes, thick leather was great for armour, the japanese used it extensively in their yoroi.

that is only part true the leather that the Japanese's used was more like rawhide. and it lacquered was about 1/8 inch thick tough stuff !
just my two cents .

[Magnus]

Very true! They used the hide of water buffalo if I recall...very thick indeed!

[muskitear]

Tribune Valerius\\n[quote]Hmmm... my images do not seem to have materialized. Let's see if this works:

segmentata w/sleeve pteruges pic:
[url:m0b602is]http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z233/trooper1127/praewma3.jpg[/url]
enlisted subarmalis:
[url:m0b602is]http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z233/trooper1127/valenlistdsub.jpg[/url]
officer subarmalis:
[url:m0b602is]http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z233/trooper1127/valofficersub.jpg[/url]
officer subarmalis flat, w/o collar frills:
[url:m0b602is]http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z233/trooper1127/valofficersub2.jpg[/url]

Gil[/quote I am very interested in the style shown in your photos. Is the material black leather or material.
I have to make an outfit like this for my Centurio and I have a large amount of black hide. I am getting the impression there is a certain degree of license here, because where scanning this thread there is a great use of modern materials and sewing machines. Is black hide permissible???

[madoc]

The only opinion I have given is that pteryges might have been leather and that leather has protective qualities too. I used the example of leather on shields as an example of the people of the time utilising it for it's qualities.

I did provide the reports from sites, giving details of finds. All of these sites have shields with leather used in the construction. It says "leather". Rather than believe the experts and trust their judgement, some people here seem to know better.

Where people have re-constructed items, with the leather, then they do indeed seem to possess better protective qualities. They are no doubt wrong as well.

I repeat again that there is no evidence of what pteryges are made of. You _don't_ actually know. There are sculptures, which some believe to be artistic and some don't, and that's it. The examples made by different people are as different as the people themselves. Does it make any one interpretation less valid than another ? Some of you seem to think so.

oh, by the way, I never said that the doncaster shield _was_ Roman. Here's my post:

More likely Roman though, eh ?
Boss with four equally spaced rivets are not always roman in origin, but they are the usually found in roman contexts (not Iron age ones). There are also the rivet sizes. Of course, it was also pulled out of a Roman fort, beneath the Antonine defences.

In other situations, where an item is pulled out of a Roman context with Roman characteristics then it is most likely to be considered Roman.

I am still chuckling over the idea of britons armed with very sharp scissors (or as one lady on our forum said with garden shears) .. wasn't there a gladiator called a "scissor" ? Maybe we got his weapon all mixed up .......

[madoc]

[color=darkblue]I am getting the impression there is a certain degree of license here, because where scanning this thread there is a great use of modern materials and sewing machines. Is black hide permissible???

... anything goes apart from leather it would seem D D

[muskitear]

[color=darkblue]I am getting the impression there is a certain degree of license here, because where scanning this thread there is a great use of modern materials and sewing machines. Is black hide permissible???

... anything goes apart from leather it would seem D D

Hmmmm!! Maybe they had mail inside 'em or scales.
My main objective is not to spend my time albeit by modern means creating something that is totally wrong. My main concern is to use as best possible the material that reenactors approve of. I am also considering that natural leather or oxblood would have been available.
Black cloth and leather dying was expensive to produce even in the 17th century. I would probably be inclined to concede that black leather in Roman times was a rarity or if it existed at all.
Ill be knocking out black leather thongs at a reasonable price D D

[Marcus Mummius]

[color=darkblue]I am getting the impression there is a certain degree of license here, because where scanning this thread there is a great use of modern materials and sewing machines. Is black hide permissible???

... anything goes apart from leather it would seem D D

Hmmmm!! Maybe they had mail inside 'em or scales.
My main objective is not to spend my time albeit by modern means creating something that is totally wrong. My main concern is to use as best possible the material that reenactors approve of. I am also considering that natural leather or oxblood would have been available.
Black cloth and leather dying was expensive to produce even in the 17th century. I would probably be inclined to concede that black leather in Roman times was a rarity or if it existed at all.
Ill be knocking out black leather thongs at a reasonable price D D

Perhaps real black, black black is hard to do. But a very dark grey, nearly black is very easy to obtain. Just drop some iron filings or steel wool into vineagar, let it sit for some time and you have an excellent dye!

Vale,