Making Pteruges (or at least trying to make Pteruges!)

[madoc]

If the leather ones hang in a similar fashion to the sculptures, then it is surely a viable method of reconstruction ?

leather _does_ have protective qualities. I have been present when tests, admittedly with viking period sharp weapons, have been carried out.
It is also used to strengthen shields, both intrinsically and against weapons both in a contemporary contexts * and later anglo saxon ones **. It survives in these contexts as traces behind rivets and edging.
Personally speaking, I have a dark age shield that has conservatively seen 20 years of use (some of it very hard use indeed) and outlived all of it's contempories purely because it is leather covered. Yes the metal weapons were blunt, but that is still some impressive longevity.

I could never understand why everyone believes that roman leather shield covers are removed before fighting ? Makes far more sense to leave them on.

*iron age cemeteries in east yorkshire - stead -1991
*first century shield find from doncaster, buckland,, 1978
** wood usage in anglo-saxon shields, watson, 1994

[Magnus]

If the leather ones hang in a similar fashion to the sculptures, then it is surely a viable method of reconstruction ?

leather _does_ have protective qualities. I have been present when tests, admittedly with viking period sharp weapons, have been carried out.
It is also used to strengthen shields, both intrinsically and against weapons both in a contemporary contexts * and later anglo saxon ones **. It survives in these contexts as traces behind rivets and edging.
Personally speaking, I have a dark age shield that has conservatively seen 20 years of use (some of it very hard use indeed) and outlived all of it's contempories purely because it is leather covered. Yes the metal weapons were blunt, but that is still some impressive longevity.

I could never understand why everyone believes that roman leather shield covers are removed before fighting ? Makes far more sense to leave them on.

*iron age cemeteries in east yorkshire - stead -1991
*first century shield find from doncaster, buckland,, 1978
** wood usage in anglo-saxon shields, watson, 1994

Sure but if leather was as good as it's linen counterpart, then why didn't the ancients make more use of it? Better to go with the evidence we have!

That's an interesting point about the leather shield cover...however, why bother painting them if you're simply going to cover them in leather after? It also defeats the purpose of the paint scheme being used for identification, as quoted by Caesar I think it was? About the two guys using discarded shields to deceptively approach an enemy position and attack it.

Also, I don't think your shield is going to last nearly as long if you had used it against people with edged weapons. Blunt weapons aren't the same and surely were not the choice of rome's enemies for the most part.

I don't think it makes any sense to leave them on during combat....edged weapons are going to ruin it after the first few minutes of battle. Especially given the thiness of the leather used in shield covers. I'm pretty sure they were to preserve the shield from the elements, and nothing more.

[madoc]

Also, I don't think your shield is going to last nearly as long if you had used it against people with edged weapons. Blunt weapons aren't the same and surely were not the choice of rome's enemies for the most part.

sorry.
Wrong.
Leather facing on shields has a positive result with sharp weapons as well;please reread my post.

You might have seen a documentary on the discovery channel where they were testing shields vs period thrown weapons. A friend of mine (in fact he bought my house off me) was the chap making the shields. leather covered shields are stronger (because of the binding effect of the leather) but the leather provides a surprising level of protection.

Have I missed something here ?
I did not believe there is any find of these items, so nobody knows for sure. It looks like, re-reading this entire thread, that many chaps have made theirs from a variety of materials using a variety of styles (some which, I would contend, have zero protective value) and construction methods. Surely each is valid, if it emulates the pictorial evidence ?

[Tarbicus]

Felt, lnen/textile, and parchment/rawhide have been cited as Roman shield layers, but no mention of your usual run-of-the-mill leather, AFAIK. Anyone know of any, perhaps from Illerup? Christian?

[madoc]

Multiple layers of linen is armour, a piece of flexible leather is costume. You don't need mortal combat to test that out.

All armour is a trade off in flexibility vs weight vs protection, you must know that.

I have just spoken to one the group, who also does a bit of greek, and he has a "recreated" laminated linothorakes armour. Great, protective stuff but as inflexible as you like. Ever wonder why the arms are not covered ?The laminated arm pteryges would actually not be flexible enough to let you move. However, I am given to understand the convention is to laminate linothorakes but there's not too much evidence and, they could easily be quilted. Properly "Quilted" ones might move easier ?. I imagine one of the Greek chaps would know more.

Alexander has some laminated ? unlikely ..

[madoc]

Felt, lnen/textile, and parchment/rawhide have been cited as Roman shield layers, but no mention of your usual run-of-the-mill leather, AFAIK. Anyone know of any, perhaps from Illerup? Christian?

Roman:
First century shield from doncaster, Buckland, britannia 1978
Dura europos, waterer, leather and the warrior, 1981 (not sure of original report here)

Contemporary:
Clonoura shield, Raftery, La Tene in Ireland, 1983
numerous shields, iron age cemeteries in east yorkshire - stead -1991

we need more ?

[MartinWard]

Alan,

Yes the sculpture is fantastic but i percieve it the other way to you, if you take a close look at the bottom of the danglies, i feel that the way the sculpter has portrayed the finish indicates that the tassels are an addition to the actual pteruges themselves. i am not saying that they are not linen, just that they actually resemble the finish i have on my leather pteruges when the tassels have been stictched on. also (if we consider the pteruges as defensive) the way that the pteruges hang, and the way the stitching is shown, indicate to me a more flexible defence than glued linen strips. the scalloped areas, could be either linen or leather, i would favour the latter purely for the reason of the raised edging of the scallops indicates to me worked leather. As you say we each interpret as we see.
Cheers

[Tarbicus]

Roman:
First century shield from doncaster, Buckland, britannia 1978

I thought the jury was very much out on that shield; about whether it was Roman or not? I've certainly seen it described as 'equivocal'.

I'll look through the Simon James Dura report when I get a chance.

[Magnus]

sorry.
Wrong.
Leather facing on shields has a positive result with sharp weapons as well;please reread my post.

I think you've digressed to the point where you've forgoten what we're talking about, and I quote "I could never understand why everyone believes that roman leather shield covers are removed before fighting ? Makes far more sense to leave them on. "
Are you then making a blanket statement that shield covers are the same as shield facing?

I very well read your post John, but I simply haven't strayed off topic. I wasn't talking about leather facing, we're talking about shield covers (refer to your first post). The leather shield covers were not used in combat...if you can show me evidence that they were, fine. Leather as a shield facing? Why not! Rawhide was used, and certainly on the edge.

You might have seen a documentary on the discovery channel where they were testing shields vs period thrown weapons. A friend of mine (in fact he bought my house off me) was the chap making the shields. leather covered shields are stronger (because of the binding effect of the leather) but the leather provides a surprising level of protection.

I'm sure it did, as did Linen! But we're not talking about shield facings, are we? The differences between facing a shield and leather and straping an unglued, soft oiled leather cover over it are quite different.

Have I missed something here ?

I think so. You brought up shield covers, then went on to shield facing. I never disagreed that a leather faced shield has great defensive capabilities. But you seem to think that keeping a shield cover on during combat was a fantastic idea. There is also a reference to soldiers being ambushed (again during Caesar's era I beleive) and not having time to take their covers off their scuta. Clearly indicating that this was normal practice.

Hope that clears it up for you.

[madoc]

I thought the jury was very much out on that shield; about whether it was Roman or not? I've certainly seen it described as 'equivocal'.

More likely Roman though, eh ?
Boss with four equally spaced rivets are not always roman in origin, but they are the usually found in roman contexts (not Iron age ones). There are also the rivet sizes. Of course, it was also pulled out of a Roman fort, beneath the Antonine defences.

[Tarbicus]

I thought the jury was very much out on that shield; about whether it was Roman or not? I've certainly seen it described as 'equivocal'.

More likely Roman though, eh ?
Boss with four equally spaced rivets are not always roman in origin, but they are the usually found in roman contexts (not Iron age ones). There are also the rivet sizes. Of course, it was also pulled out of a Roman fort, beneath the Antonine defences.

I'm just going by what archaeologists say. It's also inconclusive as to whther the organic covering was leather or rawhide. Sorry Madoc, but I can't be quite as confident as you are about its origins or construction.

[Aedinius]

Could it be possible that the pteruges have a leather core with linen stitched on top and below? This would make them a bit stiffer with the leather in the middle, linen on the outside and stitiched into one piece. Just typing out loud..

[CWyre]

Just to prove not everyone in the Vicus is a leather person (sorry guys :oops: ). I see weave in that statue.

That the tassels don't appear to be integral to the uppermost layer doesn't necessarily have to mean they are applied as a separate piece, and can still very easily be interpreted as fabric. From making my quilted linen ones (will post when done) you need a lot more than a single layer of cloth and a inner layer could easily be tasselled at the end, then sewn in.
From a few experiments with weaving and spinning, a narrow band where the warp threads loop back on themselves will if slightly overspun (which we've found to be quite easy to do with hand & wheel spinning) will twist up on itself to make a nice tassel, as part of the fabric. What i see is this being sewn in, with a facing sewn over the top. It makes more sense to me than sewing on a separately made set of tassels when the same effect could be a side-effect of the production process.
At least this is the rationale i based mine on.

As for defensive properties of fabric, i'm fairly confident that the ones we've made would at least stop me getting cut. We used 5 layers of canvas-like linen that were left over from covering padded jacks, covered by finer stuff from tunic making.

I reckon that it's open to interpretation one way or the other, i just see more for cloth.

[MartinWard]

Chris your on a charge for not backing up your centurion! lol. cant wait to see the finished product.

[Doc]

Martin,

I have made myself pteryges out of layered linen. I have three rows both on the legs and on the arms.

They do hang down as you see them in sculpture (more or less) and they are not as stiff as you might think. When overlayed as they are, they would be quite defensive.

Also I agree that something flexible is very good at absorbing impact or slashing. There was a thread that I posted on my reconstruction. I do not recall where it is here on RAT.

When you look at some of these statues, you see the pteryges being quite flexible and some may ask how can this be with glued linen strips. Glued strips would make them stiff and would not hang. Thus they must me something else.

This of course is because the linothorax was made of glued layers of linen.

However, (I do not have evidence for this only my experience with my reconstruction) if one considers sewing all the layers together, what happens is that A) When they get wet, they won't fall apart as do many when using glue (I have experienced this), B )they are not that stiff they have flexibilty to them that allows them to hang down.

If you see the sculptures you will notice that some of them look bulky and rounded at times with creases in them in a similar fashion to thick cloth garments.

My picture is too large to put directly here but if you look for the thread you will see my reconstruction.

I know many people have this idea about glued layers. But it has been my experience that glueing several layers of linen will not make them hang down. The only way I see it is sewn layers. Make no mistake three rows of 1/4 inch thick each pteryges is adequate protection for a slash. Linen fiber is quite fibrous, even when cutting with a scissor it was not that easy.

The fringes at the end came directly form the frayed ends of the linen

Paolo