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Making Pteruges (or at least trying to make Pteruges!)
#61
I have heard of these 'boxes of plain pugiones' before. The problem with them is that whenever I track down dig reports and museum catalogues, I normally find the ones I already knew existed and rarely come accross anything truly unexpected. It is true that many more pugiones and sheaths have been found than are on display, but most of those which I know of which do not seem to be on display are still highly decorated. It may be just that they are less complete or the man who did the original decoration was simply not as good as the man in the workshop accross the road. Therefore, when space in a display cabinet is at a premium, it will almost always be the best executed and preserved examples which get displayed. Thus of the five daggers and/or sheaths found in Colcester, only one is on display in the museum. Similarly the Legionary museum in Caerleon displays none of the five daggers and/or sheaths found there but instead features the two from a few miles away at Usk. Corbridge has produced one dagger sheath which features quite an interesting decorative scheme but it is incomplete and this may be why it is not on display in the museum there.

"An argument could be made that the soldiers who carved the Adamklissi metopes embellished themselves in an effort to appear more heroic. If someone was to state… when a solider makes a sculpture of himself he would only make a perfectly accurate impression and if an artist makes a sculpture he must have embellished it, or vice-versa, doesn’t hold water."

I don't think that that is quite the point that most of us have been making. It is more a case of this: the Adamklissi metopes and the Rhineland sculptures were produced away from the main centres where public sculpture was produced and can thus be reasonably confidently thought to have been done by sculptors who were at best locally trained, rather than classically trained. On the other hand you have a highly profficient class of sculptors in the main cities of empire who have been taught in the traditional way in high class schools and workshops which also taught them the 'correct' forms to sculpt things in and the appropriate formulae which should be applied. No one for a moment would suggest them to be incompetents or overly given to personal flourishes which they knew to be incorrect.
What must be acknowledged though, is that what is seen in the Rhineland sculptures tends to prove to be a good representation of what the archaeological record shows us, as, to a large extent, do the Adamklissi metopes. Unfortunately the same thing cannot be said for the places where high class sculpture is found. It is quite resonable to think then, that the best sculptors (ie in Rome and the other larger cities) would have produced work of superlative quality but with a reliance on forms and formulae which had been taught to them in the absence of actual solders in battle gear, whereas the porrer sculptors in the provinces produced work of markedly inferior quality but which, by its depiction of equipment also known from the archaeological record, shows that the sculptors had a good working knowledge of the kit actually worn and carried by soldiers. Therefore, poorly executed provicial sculpture can often shed more light on the reality of the army that magnificently executed public sculpture. It is not the quality of the sculpture that matters so much to the student of equipment but what the background of the sculptor was. For the provincial sculptor without classical training to back him up what he had to go on what simply what he saw.

Moving away from sculpture now, when it comes to making equipment I suspect that subarmali were made in a different factory to mail and so the time taken to produce one would not detract from the time available to make the other.

Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers.  :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.romanarmy.net">www.romanarmy.net
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#62
FINALLY...finished this bloody thing. Kept the shoulder pteryges simple...they'll likely be mostly if not almost all under the shoulder plates of my segmentata anyway. This was a massive project...glad it's over!
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#63
Looks firstrate! How about a picture of it on somebody...you could mail it here, and I'd model it for you...then since you have so much experience, you could just donate the prototype to me, and make yourself an even better set. Hmm. What do you think? Sound good?

Ok, stop laughing. Here's a laud for your great work!
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#64
Hahahah, thanks Dave!

I'll post pics of it on me, once I'm done my other essential centurion gear...new crest and holder, and greaves.

Of course, that basic gear is leaving out a lot of extras...phalerae, vitis, new belt, updated gladius scabbard, new pugio, etc. etc. but you'll get the gist!
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#65
Nooooooo, we want to see it on you now...... Confusedhock:
you've tortured us for long enough, I think a taster of how it sits is only fair...... :? P
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
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#66
Ave, Jef, believe it or not, I just now went back to this thread and saw that you’d asked me a question… a thousand pardons for my tardes! So, your question:

Quote:I made shoulder pteryges in two overlapping fanlike layers. They don't exactly fall like I would want the to fall. I might try your method to improve this... Were did you glue them onto the fan? Only at the top? Or over the entire length?
I just glued them in at the top… I’m of the mindset that these should not really be connected to one another more than that. The sleeve ones are, on officer uniforms, usually fairly short anyway, which will prevent the overly-splayed, pteruges-blowing-in-the-wind look.

Quote:The Adamklissi soldiers aren't praetorians, they're common rank and file...
You’re absolutely right, the Adamklissi completely slipped my mind! How careless of me. :oops:

Antonius, if I may make a suggestion (of little use now, but perhaps for future projects): if you’re going to use a sewing machine for finishing work, then it would be better to have the thread color match the fabric color. Machine-stitching, while very neat in appearance, is fairly identifiable to most. Do the opposite with hand stitching, if you have any: make the thread some off-color, so as to draw attention to the fact that it’s hand-sewn.


Quote:I suppose if I make the pteryges long enough to go past the shoulder plates the ends of the fringe would be ok....sucks cuz there aren't a lot of pteryges in reliefs with segmentata. – Matt/Magnus
I’m finding it had to find any(on segmentata-wearing legionaries), other than this one from the Marcus Aurelius monument:
[Image: ?action=view&current=praewma3.jpg]
And if those are pteruges, then your last suggestion (the fringe just clearing the shoulder plates) would be very accurate.

Quote:Excuse me, but the image posted by Anthony clearly shows the soldiers wearing the segs also wearing short pteruges similar to the one worn by the guy to the left in the curass, pointing to a similar subarmalis worn by both types. –Robert Wimmers
[color=darkblue]Those smaller “pterugesâ€
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#67
Hmmm... my images do not seem to have materialized. Let's see if this works:

segmentata w/sleeve pteruges pic:
[url:17uk8oi7]http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z233/trooper1127/praewma3.jpg[/url]
enlisted subarmalis:
[url:17uk8oi7]http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z233/trooper1127/valenlistdsub.jpg[/url]
officer subarmalis:
[url:17uk8oi7]http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z233/trooper1127/valofficersub.jpg[/url]
officer subarmalis flat, w/o collar frills:
[url:17uk8oi7]http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z233/trooper1127/valofficersub2.jpg[/url]

Gil
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#68
Quote:There are a lot of details, such as the soldiers wrapping their cingulum straps around the belt several times to shorten them while on the march, that appear on TC, but not in other places… things that an artist simply wouldn’t know to do, unless they’d all been in the army themselves. Which is doubtful. I'm not saying TC isn't idealized, only that the artists had plenty of actual troops nearby to use as inspiration.
Armour was banned from the city, but soldiers could wear their belts (and still keep their pugiones attached - thinking of the soldierly killing spree when some youths cut the straps for fun). Belts would be there for the sculptors to see.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#69
Ah, a point on machine stiching. If you set the sewing machine to the longest possible stitch and add just a hint of zigzag, the appearance is somewhat less machined, as the fabric will also work a bit. Just a thought, I did the hems of my tunic by hand, folding the machined edge under. This will prevent the unraveling of the fabric, but the outward appearance is authentic (and yes, I did use off color linen yarn to do the hems to make them stand out).
Salvete et Valete



Nil volentibus arduum





Robert P. Wimmers
www.erfgoedenzo.nl/Diensten/Creatie Big Grin
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#70
hello all this is my first post so hope it will work

I am presently working on my subarmalis and have sucessfully completed the two layers of pteruges around the body. The shoulders are proving a little bit of a pain at present but i will get there. The subarmalis is leather throughout and every stitch is hand done, very time consuming but at least my occupation allows me to do a lot of work on the subarmalis at my place of work. I will be dying the leather pteruges a dark red when everything is assembled, a lot of time and effort has gone into this but as i have just entered the centurionate i feel its worth it. i will post pictures when i have found out how to. good luck to everyone who is making pteruges for their subarmalis. oh and hello to you all
martin ward
vicuscenturion

carpe diem[/quote]
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#71
Salve, Vicuscenturion,
The easiest way to post a picture is to store your image on Photobucket (open an account there at photobucket.com), and once stored, it will give you a list of references below the picture. Choose the one that says IMG, copy the whole URL and paste it into your message. Then people can click that link and see the picture. A photobucket account is a useful tool, anyhow.

Glad to see another new name here.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#72
ok everyone my apologies for shouting and here is the revised version of my earlier posting.

The pteruges pronounced ter-OO-gas, are leather ‘strips’ attached at the shoulder and waist of the under armour padding called a subarmalis in latin. With each individual the measurements obviously differ, so the measurements will not be given as these will give rise to confusion. My intention is to show the method I used to construct my subarmalis/pteruges.

The initial starting point of my subarmalis and indeed the only original part of it left was an English Civil War ‘buff’ coat. Buff coat being the style as it was not buff at all, but I digress!

The skirt of the coat was divided lengthways around the circumference into strips of equal width; these were double layered with leather cut from a side of hide. Another layer of strips to go around the waist were cut out, the length approx a third shorter than the first layer of strips.

The side and bottom edges of these strips were then folded backwards and stuck down, holes were then made at roughly regular intervals where the edges had been stuck down.(very very time consuming and very boring job to do, no pun intended.)

The leather was then hand stitched using linen thread using the holes already made for the purpose (another slow and repetitive job), the top layer of pteruges were then joined to the bottom layer where they joined the waist of the subarmalis

Once completed, the lower set of pteruges were embellished with tassles of natural cotton. Avoid using modern tassles, they may look good but will definitely not be authentic material! These were cut glued and stitched to the bottom of each individual pteruge.

The shoulder pteruges are constructed in a similar way to the waist, being folded ,glued and stitched, again measurements are not given.

To attach the pteruges at the shoulders I cut out a rectangle of leather for each shoulder, the outer edge, that is to say the edge furthest from the neck of the subarmalis was scalloped along its entire length.


The top of each pteruge was glued to the rear of the shoulder piece. Starting at the middle and working out, each strip was angled slightly from its neighbour. The second longer layer was then glued to the shoulder section but overlapping the original layer.

I have found that while they the pteruges will not lay flat they will not stick out like wings either and the weight of a mail shirt when worn will pull the pteruges down into a better position.

Once glued into position the pteruges were stitched to the shoulder unit.
I have chosen to call it a unit as I have not attached it permanently to the subarmalis. I have found that attached pteruges tend to get caught when putting on a mail shirt and thought it would be easier if the shoulder pteruges were detachable

The pteruges where then dyed using a dark red leather dye.a neutral wax was applied and buffed to a finish

I will post pictures soon
martin ward
vicuscenturion

carpe diem[/quote]
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#73
Quote:The pteruges pronounced ter-OO-gas, are leather ‘strips’ attached at the shoulder and waist of the under armour padding called a subarmalis in latin.
We have no actual evidence they were leather, and there's as much, if not more, pictorial and sculptural evidence that they were linen, felt or wool. Layered linen or felt would also have armour properties, unlike leather.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#74
Yep, why would a Roman have used leather? Think about it. He would have had to go to the trouble of tanning it, then dying it. What for? It is useless as an armor. Linen and felt, on the other hand, have proven properties as armor.
"In war as in loving, you must always keep shoving." George S. Patton, Jr.
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#75
Quote:Yep, why would a Roman have used leather? Think about it. He would have had to go to the trouble of tanning it, then dying it. What for? It is useless as an armor. Linen and felt, on the other hand, have proven properties as armor.

Yes, but history has clearly shown us that people do things that make no sense. Like that unit of pike-men in the U.S. Civil war. I wouldn't rule anything out, even though it seems unlikely.
Dennis Flynn
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