Crest colors

[Caius Marius]

Salve Omnes....

I had noticed while looking for helms and crests that the black and white "Special Command" crests all seem to say front-to-back mount only.

Was this color of crest never mounted transverse by the centurios?

Was it strictly an Optio crest?

If it was/can be worn by centurios, how hard is the modification to be able to mount it transverse?

Or is it available for purchase as a tranverse as well?

At some point I remember seeing a photo of someone who had mounted one transverse and was blown away by how it looked. I have also noticed a few that seem to have had their blocks decorated with coins or small discs, very nice the way they were done. Any suggestions as to what to use and where they can be found or purchased would be great help.

Yeah I know thats a mouthful of questions, hehe :wink: but again, thanks in advance for any answers that they may receive!

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Hello,

The black and white colour esquem is a moder convention. It's not based in any ancient depiction. In fact, it's a copy of the crest used by the optio of the Ermine Street Guard.

Never have been founded any crest block and only a possible crest (as i know). Is the one from Vindolanda.

So, we have only the metallic mounts and some reliefs depicting crests to make our reproductions.

[Tarbicus]

Never have been founded any crest block and only a possible crest (as i know). Is the one from Vindolanda.

And that's made from grass

[Crispvs]

"And that's made from grass "

I believe the particular species is known as 'hair moss'. Celer, Caballo and I were at Vindolanda recently and had a good look at the crest. It appeared that strands of the grass had been put into small 'sheaves' which had been bent double and tied at the base to hold both ends of the 'sheaves' upright to produce bristles which were about five inches long. Lots of these had been sewn side to side to produce a continuous row which immediately looks like a crest. The fact that the bristles were sewn together so close to their bases indicated that they could not have been positioned through holes in a wooden crest block. It also looked as if there might be a portion of another one lying underneath. The crest also appears to have been associated with a curving piece of copper alloy plate which could conceivably be part of the side of a metal crest box.
This caused us to develop the hypothesis that perhaps the original crest might have consisted of several layers, each equivilent to the surviving hair moss crest, placed side by side (hence the apparent fragment of another underneath) in a metal crest box and glued in place with pitch or something similar. Several layers side by side would give thickness to the crest as the surviving piece gives the impression that it could never have been very thick. We also wondered whether the whole crest could have been treated with pitch as a preservative, as the 'moss', being an organic substance, would surely pose some danger of rotting if not treated in some way.

Unfortunately, Vindolanda does not allow photography so I am unable to post up a picture of the crest (all this assumes of course that the object concerned has been correctly identified).

It should be noted that even if our suggestion of how the original crest may have been constructed is correct, there may have been several different methods of crest construction current in different places at the same time.

Incidentally (and sorry this has got somewhat off topic) there is also a 'lady's wig' from Vindolanda made from the same stuff, which looks rather stiff and uncomfortable for a wig, particulary when we know there was a brisk trade in wigs made from human hair. Caballo pointed out that it could just as well have been intended to be fitted to a helmet. This is particularly pertinent as we know that there were Batavian units stationed at Vindolanda. Those people who subscribe to Ancient Warfare magazine will know what I mean. Peronis' article on Batavian helmets can also be read on our website (address below).

Crispvs

[Tarbicus]

Here's a photo of the crest:


Potential candidates for reconstruction:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 1990#51990

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Chris
As Cesar correctly points out if anyone has equipped their Optio with a black and white crest then the limit of their research has been looking at pictures or seeing in person the Optio of the Ermine Street Guard and not checking the ancient sources! That also goes for equiping Optios in a mail shirt with shoulder doubling, brown pteryges, a satchel for wax tablets and a metal knobbed staff!

There is as yet sadly no evidence for black and white crests in the Roman period.

Red or white crests exist in Imperial Roman art and Arrian mentions cavalrymen in the sports events wearing yellowish crests while Centurions are supposed to have had silvered crests which could also imply horse or feathered crests of that colour. That is probably about all there is.

Graham.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I will back what crisus says about the crest, as I went there again the day after we all departed Corbridge, but I missed the metal piece associated with it.

But it is a partial remain, in my view, and would certainly have had more layers to it......the section behind it is not the full width of the front displayed to the public.

I too, was foiled in my attempt to photograph it P )

Have pictures of the team digging tho' :lol:

The wig look exactly as crispus describes, very uncomfortable, and I too came to your conclusion, after reading and seeing so much about the hair helmets!

Have to find some hair moss and give this technique a go.....

[Caius Marius]

Excellent! thank you all for the wonderful informative posts. Looks like I'll be going with red for my crest.

Very fascinating info on the woven grass. I too would think they would have had to have placed something on them to preserve them and keep them from being broken down.

I am convinced that I was born on the wrong continent, hehe. Gonna have to schedule some trips "across the pond" to just spend hours wandering museums. I'm drooling just thinking about that now, hehe. :wink:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, it's funy how so many of us can trace our origins to this side of the pond.....who would have figured, with alllll that water in between hock: :lol: Its also amazing how genetic memories kick in...when in the right place!
Europe is a great place to be, as is the other side of the pond! You definately need to make it over here Chris!