Proto-Centurion question

[Cruxik]

Hello! I've been viewing these forums on and off for several months now but this is my first post. It's nice having a site like this because I'm teaching myself Roman history for research purposes in writing a certain book ive been working on. The book is part of a much larger work that demands research on a huge range of subjects (everything under the sun..and over it too). So I dont have time to properly educate myself on the subject or attend school on it. Therefore I try to weed through articles all over the library and internet to get an idea on a few things I need to know for the setting for this particular book. The setting only takes place in the years 149 to possibly 146BC so I'm more interested in roman-greek relations leading up to the eventual roman provinces in macedonia and greece (therefore I am interested in middle republic rome, and late hellenistic greece.) This has led me to learn more about the Roman army at the time and I have a decent concept of it.

Wikipedia is a very convenient tool but I have critical caution on some of it and most of it doesnt cover the subjects in detail so I've come here, as my knowledge needs to be practical as well as scholarly.

Also, I've taken to the sources (for the sake of convenience) used by the team of Rome Total Realism, a mod for a game I'm sure some of you are acquainted with. So I am wondering (pending the release of RTR 7.0) how much I could trust some of their historical data, particularly on the visual end (with the obvious exception that every soldier isnt going to be dressed and armed uniformly like in the game). If not are there other visual sources you guys could lead me to?

So this brings me to a couple of questions, one, am I allowed to post questions about various things here or is there another place for that? Or is it frowned upon here? If so then I apologize, If not then I have my first question that I cant seem to solve and is very important to me.

I've pieced together the idea that the Centurion was first put in place by the Marius Reforms, if this is true, then what would have been the equivalent (if any), to the Centurion in the Manipular army in place during the Third Punic war? For instance rather than a Century of 80 men, a leader(officer) of each 120 man maniple, or a certain division thereof?
If so what would he have been called and how would he have been armed? If the Centurion was somehow around that would make things convenient, but I now doubt this to be the case.

If it is allowed I will be posting random questions like this every-once in awhile. Please correct any inaccuracies in my knowledge if you feel up to it, thanks.

[Tarbicus]

I've pieced together the idea that the Centurion was first put in place by the Marius Reforms, if this is true, then what would have been the equivalent (if any), to the Centurion in the Manipular army in place during the Third Punic war?

Welcome Patrick. First off, I'd recommend using the Search function to see if that brings up any resources for you.

Centurions - around before Marius was a twinkle in his mum and dad's eyes. They were elected by the men under their command, who were possibly kinsmen. Scroll down to p32 on this webpage:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/G ... TR*/1.html
The Cities and Cemeteries of Etruria by George Dennis;
"Fourteenth War. — In 347 (406 BC I think).... Messengers were despatched from Rome to consult the oracle at Delphi as to the meaning of this prodigy. In the mean time, at one of the outposts of the camp before Veii, the soldiers, as often happens in such situations, fell p32to gossiping with the townsfolk instead of fighting; and one of them, a Roman centurion, who had made acquaintance with an old citizen, renowned as a soothsayer, began one day to lament the fate of his friend, seeing that when the city was taken, he would be involved in the common destruction."

If you got the info about centurions from THIS PAGE then it's worth taking a look at THIS PAGE.

There is more valuable information here:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... citus.html

You need to copy and paste the non-linkable URL's above with the last parts in normal black text (a quaint feature of Lacus Curtius).

[Matthew Amt]

Wikipedia is a very convenient tool but I have critical caution on some of it and most of it doesnt cover the subjects in detail so I've come here, as my knowledge needs to be practical as well as scholarly.

Also, I've taken to the sources (for the sake of convenience) used by the team of Rome Total Realism, a mod for a game I'm sure some of you are acquainted with.

Ave, Patrick! First off, my first rule of thumb is to Avoid Wikipedia Like the Plague. Yes, I have seen good information there, but so much is also so riddled with glaring errors that I am terrified at the thought of anyone actually trying to learn about the Roman army from it! I don't know anything about the game you mention, but I'd at least be VERY leery of using it for a source or for collecting sources.

My advice: Get a couple books!

Connolly, Peter. Greece and Rome at War, 2nd edition (Ack, sorry, I only have the ISBN for the first edition, 1998!)

Sekunda, Nick. Republican Roman Army 200-104 BC. Osprey Men-at-Arms Series #291. London: Osprey, 1994. ISBN 1-855325-985

Warry, John. Warfare in the Classical World. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1980. ISBN 0-312-85614-8

Goldsworthy, Adrian. The Roman Army at War, 100 BC - AD 200. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1996. ISBN 0-19-815090-3

There's also an Osprey volume called "Early Roman Armies" which is quite good. Any of the books above should give you more information, and much better, than all of Wikipedia. And the Ospreys are cheap!

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/bibliog.html

I've pieced together the idea that the Centurion was first put in place by the Marius Reforms, if this is true, then what would have been the equivalent (if any), to the Centurion in the Manipular army in place during the Third Punic war? For instance rather than a Century of 80 men, a leader(officer) of each 120 man maniple, or a certain division thereof?
If so what would he have been called and how would he have been armed?

Eh? No, the post of centurion was about as old as the army itself! Each maniple was made of 2 centuries, about 60 men per century for the principes and hastati, and about 30 each for the triarii (plus velites, as I recall). Each century had a centurion, with that of the "forward" century outranking that of the "rear" century. The 80 man century is considered typical for the Empire, not the Republic.

That get you started? Good luck and Vale,

Matthew

[Cruxik]

Wikipedia is a very convenient tool but I have critical caution on some of it and most of it doesn't cover the subjects in detail so I've come here, as my knowledge needs to be practical as well as scholarly.

Also, I've taken to the sources (for the sake of convenience) used by the team of Rome Total Realism, a mod for a game I'm sure some of you are acquainted with.

Ave, Patrick! First off, my first rule of thumb is to Avoid Wikipedia Like the Plague. Yes, I have seen good information there, but so much is also so riddled with glaring errors that I am terrified at the thought of anyone actually trying to learn about the Roman army from it! I don't know anything about the game you mention, but I'd at least be VERY leery of using it for a source or for collecting sources.

My advice: Get a couple books!

Connolly, Peter. Greece and Rome at War, 2nd edition (Ack, sorry, I only have the ISBN for the first edition, 1998!)

Sekunda, Nick. Republican Roman Army 200-104 BC. Osprey Men-at-Arms Series #291. London: Osprey, 1994. ISBN 1-855325-985

Warry, John. Warfare in the Classical World. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1980. ISBN 0-312-85614-8

Goldsworthy, Adrian. The Roman Army at War, 100 BC - AD 200. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1996. ISBN 0-19-815090-3

There's also an Osprey volume called "Early Roman Armies" which is quite good. Any of the books above should give you more information, and much better, than all of Wikipedia. And the Ospreys are cheap!

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/bibliog.html

I've pieced together the idea that the Centurion was first put in place by the Marius Reforms, if this is true, then what would have been the equivalent (if any), to the Centurion in the Manipular army in place during the Third Punic war? For instance rather than a Century of 80 men, a leader(officer) of each 120 man maniple, or a certain division thereof?
If so what would he have been called and how would he have been armed?

Eh? No, the post of centurion was about as old as the army itself! Each maniple was made of 2 centuries, about 60 men per century for the principes and hastati, and about 30 each for the triarii (plus velites, as I recall). Each century had a centurion, with that of the "forward" century outranking that of the "rear" century. The 80 man century is considered typical for the Empire, not the Republic.

That get you started? Good luck and Vale,

Matthew

Yeah, I figured Wikipedia was the devil. I was fairly certain awhile back that the centurions had been around forever but i remember reading some article that began to confuse me and then I was frightened that they weren't around until post marius. I'm really glad they were!

As for searching the forum, I did, but couldn't find conclusive evidence on that fact for some reason, guess ill look closer next time.

As for Rome total realism I don't plan on completely abandoning it because from what I know of the guys who work on it they're about as enthusiastic on the history as you guys are! Their history team has several degrees between them on the subject and they've taken great pains to get it as accurate as possible. Even so though, I only treat it as a last resort.

Until now I have shied away from books but that's only because i needed to know which specific ones I needed, I'll look into those, are their any others you guys could suggest for that specific "Third Punic War" time?
Thanks for the info, I'll look into those books. Just need to know that it will be mostly around the 200-150BC range cause I don't have a ton of money to throw around at books unfortunately. [/quote]

[Paullus Scipio]

As for Rome total realism I don't plan on completely abandoning it because from what I know of the guys who work on it they're about as enthusiastic on the history as you guys are! Their history team has several degrees between them on the subject and they've taken great pains to get it as accurate as possible. Even so though, I only treat it as a last resort.

AAAAaaaaa...rr....gg....hh. !! ) ) )

[Tarbicus]

Forget everything you see on Rome Total War/Total Realism !! Their visuals are great for a game ( probably the best around, as modified) , but hopeless for 'real life history' - stick to the excellent references in book form noted above, and if you have specific questions, ask here ! ) )

Actually Paul, I've modded units and legions to try out different theories on maniple formations and manoeuvering, with various spacings between men. I'm with Machiavelli on troop refreshing, and those velites can just melt right back through the hastati if they need to :wink: I wouldn't knock it wholesale, at least for the AI implementation in battle.

[Paullus Scipio]

I wouldn't knock it wholesale, at least for the AI implementation in battle.

.....don't get me wrong here,Jim.....I'm not knocking what is an excellent game, especially in 'mod' form, but the game's creators do face limitations when depicting the soldiery.
Cruxik said

how much I could trust some of their historical data, particularly on the visual end ......If not are there other visual sources you guys could lead me to? (my emphasis)

As a visual resource,RTW's depictions leave something to be desired, partly through the medium, and partly through inaccuracies, in my opinion. There are far better visual resources available.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

It is just what it is, the best game depicting ancient roman warfare you can find! 8)
But the best source i have found so far for finding accurate images of equipment, and details of roman life in general, is the one you are reading at the moment! (bar my post that is) :lol: Plus the books available obviously!

[Tarbicus]

I'm not talking about the skins or the graphics, but the actual battle and formation mechanics that result from its AI/behavioural system. Literally, once I'd modded the formations and individual frontage spacings I just clicked on the velites, clicked on target points behind the hastati and bingo, it happened in front of my eyes - every other file of hastati stepped to the back and left, and the velites melted back through their ranks, and the hastati just simply reformed from the front. This was also with Gauls and Celts attacking and no special instructions for movements - it was literally up to the legionaries or at least the code driving them. No bottlenecks between maniples or hampered retreat, but a smooth and fast manoeuvre. I tested it on different hacked formations from source descriptions (Polybian, etc), and threw in some stuff from Machiavelli. Believe me, it's a wonder to watch and IMHO better proof of theory than sitting in an armchair imagining it. And before you hark on about games, my first 11 years of the 20 years (as of this week) I've been doing cgi were in games, not just the graphics either. :wink:

[Cruxik]

Ok, right now I'm spending time learning about the government before I go back to the military because it is a bit confusing who is in command of what.
As for RTR I realize that there are severe limitations all around, so if I could be pointed in a direction for good visual sources for middle republic times that would be great. Because sadly most of what I find is pretty horrid, Imperial legionnaires in the Second Punic War? I will probably look into the books posted, right now I'm looking over the Smiths Dictionary I was linked to, pretty good, it cites Polybius a bunch and he will probably be one of my main sources. but it says it was published in 1875 so I'm guessing we have a little more info by now? Although it looks like its being updated (with translations at least). Anyways thanks for the responses guys.
And jeez, the Tribune system confuses me for some reason. hock:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, Jim, I wish I had your tallents, as that is what I wanted to get into 18- 20 years ago. Just had to go to work instead.....
That would be a nice version of rtr, why don'y you go commercial?
I would buy it for sure..... 8)

[Paullus Scipio]

I will probably look into the books posted,

....which will answer all your questions, including the one about Tribunes and good, current depictions of all the troops taking part in the second Punic War, especially the John Warry book ! D

[Cruxik]

Ok, I know I will be getting those books mentioned.
Just one more question, what would be the best books for life in hellenstic greece around the punic wars? Not so much the ways warfare, got that covered, but more of a basic understanding of what life was like? Most books I'm finding keep prefering the Hellenic era.