Captured women and children

[M. Demetrius]

Cpatured Women ansd childs will be treated in a cruel way is that right

I'm assuming you're asking a question, whether your observation that women and children would have been treated cruelly, and that "right" is asking for whether your assumption is correct. I'm certain it would be considered cruel, the treatment they would have received at the hands of the victorious army. But not just Romans. Other cultures raped, pillaged, slaughtered civilian survivors also.

Was it "right" as in, "just"? I'd say NO, but they would wonder what was the matter with me. That was just how things happened. To protect your innocents, you had to win the battle.

FTR, that horrendous practice continues in many parts of the world right up to today. I could cite several examples, but that would be modern politics, and forbidden on this board. It's still not right in my book, but nobody much cares about my book, except me.

[Memmia]

DOH!!! I typed out a massive post earlier but my PC froze and it disappeared!

Interesting post, Jim about rape warfare and the biological aspect of it. Especially the discussion of chimps behaviour, so it's not a wholly 'human' aspect. Biologically it would be understandable to fertilise the defeated group's females thus eliminating the male line, replacing it with the conquered's. Total genetic victory for the conquerers, total extinction of the conquered.

Various studies on conception rate after rape have given conficting results. Some state that the chances of conception after rape are far greater than by consentual sex, others that it is greatly reduced by the trauma aspect causing immediate rejection/ miscarriage. I would have thought it would be pretty impossible to find out for sure as understandibly many victims would not want to give info, some cultures cover up these crimes for fear of shame on the families , some victims never tell others and just disappear or many terminate the pregnancies in secret. This happens worldwide whether in war torn countries or in nice, quiet neighbourhoods.
I studied biological trade offs a few years ago and evidence did seem to point to a higher chance of conception when females were under great stress such as war or famine.

As for the conquered in Ancient times who were brutalised and then sold into slavery, I wonder how many experienced this phenomena ?

Stockhom Syndrome

(I know it's Wikipedia, but this is a pretty good article :wink: )

I wonder how many slaves were previously in such unhappy arranged marriages or situations (male or female) and the prospect of being captured and 'owned' was almost a new opportunity- or just 'same drink, different bottle' ? :?

[Tarbicus]

DOH!!! I typed out a massive post earlier but my PC froze and it disappeared!

LOL - happens to me too. I sometimes copy and paste into a TXT file just in case.

Interesting post, Jim about rape warfare and the biological aspect of it. Especially the discussion of chimps behaviour, so it's not a wholly 'human' aspect.

There are recorded and filmed cases of dolphins doing it, sometimes in gangs.

As for the conquered in Ancient times who were brutalised and then sold into slavery, I wonder how many experienced this phenomena ?

Check out the Old Testament for cases of rape, and the attitudes of men to it. In one instance Lot offered up his daughters to a marauding mob, rather than they attack his house guests.
Genesis 19:6-8; Numbers 31:17-18; Deuteronomy 22:28-29; Judges 21:10-24;
I'm not saying the Old Testament condones the acts as in the first case at least it seems to be reprimanding Lot for being weak. The second may be more about marriage than rape, but then isn't a later Roman episode known as the Rape of the Sabine Women, even though they were taken as wives but may possibly be a perfect ancient example of the Stockholm Syndrome?

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB has a law where it was okay for a man to take a captive woman he fancied, but let her mourn for a month first and not let her wear the clothes of a captive. If later the man lost interest he had to let her go as a free woman if she wished it, and it was forbidden to enslave her again or sell her.

Exodus 21:7-11 NLT is pretty bad. A man can sell his daughter as a slave and she can't be released after six years, like a male would be. If she doesn't please the 'owner' he can sell her back, though, but not to foreigners. There are other conditions which in a sense give her rights, but initially, let's face it, she was a sex slave.

[Sardaukar]

It would be indeed be mistake to see Romans or their contemporaries from the moral viewpoint that only started in 18th century (Liberty, Equality, Fraternity..civil rights..etc.) and onwards.

Many things we nowadays consider atrocious were common practice in ancient times, even customary. Raping a household slave was customary, since she or he was considered property and had no rights. Nor anyone would lift an eyebrow for that. Same with prisoners of war, who unless agreed differently and set free became slaves.

"Vae Victis" was indeed the destiny for many in ancient times..and it was not much different in for example in 100-yr-war..or 30-yr-war in 17th century..while people (in Europe) didn't become slaves, "chevauchee" and other antics were very similar.

[john m roberts]

It should be noted that women in the ancient world could have valuable skills that would put them above the rape-followed-by-domestic-servitude class. The textile crafts in particular were dominated by women and an expert weaver or dyer was a valuable catch. The Romans knew how to evaluate property, if nothing else.

[Hugh Fuller]

It should be noted that women in the ancient world could have valuable skills that would put them above the rape-followed-by-domestic-servitude class. The textile crafts in particular were dominated by women and an expert weaver or dyer was a valuable catch. The Romans knew how to evaluate property, if nothing else.

I once read or heard, I can't remember which, a commentary on the Trojan War that speculated that the Achaeans broght back a lot of the Trojan women to beef up their weaving at home and, in some cases, establish a weaving industry. IIRC, they cited Mycenae as one such city.

[Quintus Sertorius]

I understand that there were many cases on voluntary 'slavery' where the more educated nationals entered households as slaves, knowing that after 12-15 years they would be released and offered citizenship.

A captured, smart intelligent slave could prove very useful and was often well looked after as well as being a saleable asset. A good number eventually achieved citizenship. However, a perceived drongo from the mountains probably had a much tougher time - Spartacus didn't have to do too much recruiting to find himself with an army of volunteers.

It was not an ideal existence at all, but the image of life under a whip is not the full picture. Any good reading around slavery in the Republic/Empire?
Guy

[Carlton Bach]

I understand that there were many cases on voluntary 'slavery' where the more educated nationals entered households as slaves, knowing that after 12-15 years they would be released and offered citizenship.

A captured, smart intelligent slave could prove very useful and was often well looked after as well as being a saleable asset. A good number eventually achieved citizenship. However, a perceived drongo from the mountains probably had a much tougher time - Spartacus didn't have to do too much recruiting to find himself with an army of volunteers.

It was not an ideal existence at all, but the image of life under a whip is not the full picture. Any good reading around slavery in the Republic/Empire?
Guy

If you're after a good read, get hold of Wiedemann's source collection: Slavery. K. Bradley: Slaery and Soxciuety at Rome qualifies somewhat less as pleasurable, but I liked it. Moses Finley's 'Classical Slavery' paints too rosy a picture, but is spot-on for the treatment of high-status slaves and quite telling in many respects.

Generally speaking, a particularly skilled slave was a valuable asset either as a luxury item or an investment. Roman law recognised slaves as an extension of the owner's will and thus allowed for the to act as agents in most contractual relationships. Slaves could run businesses, trade in goods and services, command ships and administer estates, and these people were certainly both well-trained and well-treated. Similarly, professionals, skilled artists and academics would command considerable prices on the market. The highest recorded price for a slave was paid for a Greek grammarian, Daphnis, at 700,000 HS (according to Pliny, Natural history 7, 128, purchased by M. Scaurus). It is hard to generalise from a few nuggets of data, but it appears that prices in the thousands or low ten thousands of sesterces would be reasonable for skilled slaves in the Late Republic and Principate - not something to waste. Slave physicians and teachers worked in wealthy households, sometimes also selling their services to outsiders on the owner's account. Slave artisans sometimes ran workshops and sales outlets owned by their masters on a profit-share basis.

On the other hand, eve the lot of a pampered house slave or status symbol can't have been all that enviable. Imagine living as someone's tame academic, trotted out like a living Britannica whenever questions need answering... And the lot of most slaves was closely tied to their replacement values and the kindness or otherwise of their masters. Classical slavery was different from early modern New World chattel slavery, but it wasn't nice.

[Sardaukar]

And we have to remember that majority of slaves were neither educated nor necessarily skilled to have status like that.

What I recall, slaves from East (Greeks and others considered "civilized") with skills like reading and writing were very valued.

Barbarians on the other hand, did not usually speak languages like Greek (common language that educated Roman would be expected to speak a little) and rarely had entertainment or educational skills.

Whole word "barbarian" comes from Greek "barbar", word that Greeks invented for people whose language sounded to them like barking.