The Balustrade of Athena Polias Nikephoros in Pergamon

[Laran]

Maybe it's something like what this Etruscan warrior holds

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

OK,back to dear home,and here are the photos promised.
First,Ruben,I think one of the sword you posted(the one with yellow and black grip) is a kopis and has a guard only from the left side.the guard is only the black thin part,the bronze one is the base of the scabard and not part of the hilt.
Here are the photos,One is in Ioannina Museum and the other in Dodona museum.I don't have further details about the time period etc.


Khaire
Giannis

[MeinPanzer]

OK,back to dear home,and here are the photos promised.
First,Ruben,I think one of the sword you posted(the one with yellow and black grip) is a kopis and has a guard only from the left side.the guard is only the black thin part,the bronze one is the base of the scabard and not part of the hilt.

I think it's very clear that it is a bilobate pommel and not a birdheaded pommel. In addition, it seems clear that the painted of the Lyson and Kallikles tomb wanted to creat an effect of symmetry, which was acheived by having two bilobate-pommel swords and two birdheaded-pommel swords.

Here are the photos,One is in Ioannina Museum and the other in Dodona museum.I don't have further details about the time period etc.


Khaire
Giannis

But these are birdheaded and are still offset. Do you have examples of swords with hilts which are centred and not birdheaded?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

You don't know how was the end of the original sculpture we were talking about.It could have been bird(or anything else) headed,but it doesn't survive.Also,even that one is not completely centered,as is none of these two either.But especially the first one with the lion head is very close to the center.And in any case we see that even in a kopis the guard can extend to the the opposite side,too,the grips started becoming more centered some times.This was my original claim,anyway,and not that the sculpture with the "mysterious" sword must be a kopis and nothing else.
To tell you the truth,I suspect that these last photos do not show only the hilt,but the hilt "stuck" in the scabard base.You can see the line separating both hilts from the scabard guard,and you can distinguish it from the decoration.This probably makes only the first lion headed hilt centered and he second one just a common shaped kopis hilt.If this is not the case,then the vertical lines were made there to imitate the real guard.
In reply to the Lyson and Kallikles tomb argument,not all kopis that have been found have animal headed pommels.The fact that one of this swords does not have animal headed pommel does not necessarily mean that it is a xiphos. One of them is definitely a xiphos as it has symmetrical guard the other one does not have a symmetrical guard(guard is only the black part,and this makes it unlikely it is a xiphos. And even if it is,it is not a so important thing to argue about,is it?Since I posted the last two photos,I supported that almost centered hilts did exist for a kopis.
And I repeat,I'm not saying that any thing of these I said proves that the original sickle like sword it a kopis.Just that its hilt from itself cannot rule out the posibility.
Khaire
Giannis

[Banzai]

Does anyone know of any archaeological remains of a drepanon or rhomphaia? Pictures on reliefs or vases would be most helpful. Also, does anyone know of any detailed reference to these weapons in ancient literature?
Thanks!

[Paullus Scipio]

Banzai said:-

Does anyone know of any archaeological remains of a drepanon or rhomphaia? Pictures on reliefs or vases would be most helpful. Also, does anyone know of any detailed reference to these weapons in ancient literature?
Thanks!

Oddly enough, the Wikipaedia entry for 'rhomphaia' is an excellent place to start - giving sources and showing examples - if you 'google' the word you'll come up with a number of sites that discuss the weapon and/or show modern reconstructions............

BTW, it is a forum rule that you include your real name - you can set this up automatically in your profile under signature )

[Banzai]

Paul,

Thanks for the tip, I checked out wiki on both rhomps and dreps! What I am really trying to figure out is what a Lykian duodrepanon might have looked like so that I can model one on 15 mm toy soldiers...

Dave Beatty

PS Thanks for the tip on real names, good idea.

[Paullus Scipio]

No problem!

What I am really trying to figure out is what a Lykian duodrepanon might have looked like so that I can model one on 15 mm toy soldiers...

That Lykian relief was discussed on a thread recently...I just can't think of the name...DOH!....anyway, the 'two headed spear' is most likely a mis-interpretation of the warrior actually holding two spears......

[Duncan Head]

What I am really trying to figure out is what a Lykian duodrepanon might have looked like so that I can model one on 15 mm toy soldiers...

There are two separate weapons here - Lykians are more associated with simple "sword-sized" drepana, rather than specifically dorudrepana ("spear-sickles"). Drepana have appeared in two recent threads in this forum:

- In the Cunaxa painting thread, http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=18016

Laran posted some Achaemenid painted panels, and one shows men with hoplite aspides holding drepana. In the same thread he also posted the Kizilbel figure - details of this 19th-century illustration are suspect, but the basic outline of the drepanon’s OK.

- Also on the first graphic of the "Generals triple-crested helms:Monument Greco-Lykian 4thC.BC" thread - http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=18042 – are a couple of Lykians with drepana.

The dorudrepanon is a spear with a sickle-head below the spearhead, possibly to cut rigging in naval battles. See 28/39 at http://www.cvaonline.org/gems/scarab/scarab28.htm for a scarab showing a hoplite holding one. There are also a couple of Attic vases showing Amazons and Phrygians with dorudrepana, but I don 't know if they're on the web anywhere.

[PMBardunias]

Thanks Duncan, I have seen the combination spear/sickle dorudrepanon and wondered if they were ever used in battle and how. Perhaps you can tell me, are the simmilar sword/sickle combination weapons commonly seen in depictions of Perseus pure fantasy or did something like them exist?

[sitalkes]

Hi, you can read Nick Secunda's article about the dorudrepanon, and see my pictures of the British Museum pot which is used as one of the basis for the argument at http://home.exetel.com.au/bmboats/sekunda2.htm . Also have a look at http://home.exetel.com.au/bmboats/rhomph_similar.htm . Note that Nick's article was written in complete ignorance of the evidence available in Bulgaria. The drepanon is also discussed in many other articles that were part of the Great Rhomphaia Controversy. For archaeological evidence of the rhomphaia, have a look at my Osprey book or http://home.exetel.com.au/bmboats/rhomphia.htm

Chris

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Oh,I was searching this site when somone asked info on the romphaa,but I couldn't find it!Chris,the first two links do not work for me...
Khaire
Giannis

[D B Campbell]

the first two links do not work for me...

It's just that they've got a stray dot at the end, Giannis.

Try these: home.exetel.com.au/bmboats/sekunda2.htm and http://home.exetel.com.au/bmboats/rhomph_similar.htm .

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Thanks,should have noticed :oops:
These are the first clear depictions of a doryfrepanon that i see!

[PMBardunias]

Chris, first let me compliment you on your site and book. I have a suggestion for the Rhomphaia comparison page. Along with the Harpe you might want to mention the Spartan xyele. Are you familiar with this?