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The Balustrade of Athena Polias Nikephoros in Pergamon
#16
Do any of you know the provenance of the attched image? I assumed from the helmets it was helenistic and for some reason I thought Anatolian.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#17
If I'm not mistaken it's from the Xanthos relief.
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#18
Quote:If I'm not mistaken it's from the Xanthos relief.

....I'm not so sure, Giannis. I take it you mean the Nereid frieze in the British museum ?
It too shows a siege, with line of Hoplites etc, but they mostly have Attic-type helmets,(IIRC) while these mostly have piloi
The style doesn't seem quite the same either.......
I think it might be a different monument ..... :? ?
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#19
Well spotted Gioi ! Smile I thought it looked familiar...........
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#20
Gioi,

Thanks, great link.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#21
Quote:Thanks much Ruben!The pics you posted shed some light to the relief from Pergamos.Those round things in the scabard,I asume are rings for hunging, they look odd to me.Imagine the dagger hunging on the right or left side.As the hand reaches the hilt,the edge should have been in the outer side of the blade.Or is this not the case?
Quote:I don't think so, necessarily. When you have a curved sword or dagger in a scabbard with at least one straight side, it can be pulled straight out without difficulty. However, with a blade that is curved like this and that lies in a curved scabbard, one would (I think) need to have some extra room in the scabbard so that the handle can be pivoted upwards (we can tell, as you have written, that the side with the rings for hanging is the top side) in order to be able to to take the dagger out of the scabbard. In order to take a curved dagger out of a curved scabbard when the curve is pointing downwards, one would need to pivot the handle towards the direction the blade is curving in order to properly get it out. This is a bit hard to explain, but I hope you understand what I mean.

If, therefore, the scabbard were pointing downwards and not upwards, the owner would have to pivot the handle downwards in order to unsheath it, which would be awkward. As it is shown here, it would be able to be pulled up and out with ease.

Quote:What do your coins show?At least one of them shows the scabard alone in the man's side,I think.
Khaire
Giannis

The coins show daggers which are quite different from the ones seen here and on the Pergamon relief. The Istanbul and Pergamon daggers curve gradually right from the base of the blade. They are not sharply curved and the blades are quite slender, and they have clearly delineated handles. The first kind of sickle shown on the Etennan coins has a very wide, very sharply curved (more than 90 degrees) blade; the scabbard shown on the warrior bearing the weapon is too unclear to make out. This first kind of dagger looks like the bottom pruning knife shown in this image, only with a much shorter and thinner grip and a wider and more sharply curved blade:

http://www.andreburgos.com/wineitem/wi559d.jpg

The second kind Sekunda says is scabbarded, but it doesn't look like that to me. This kind is, at any rate, very different from the Istanbul and Pergamon daggers, with a very long, solid handle. It almost looks more like a small, sharply curved falx than a dagger. If they are in fact shown in their scabbards, they have very different kinds of scabbards than the daggers being discussed here have.

Quote:PS.You're right about the majority of kopis grips.However there are many,and increasingly into the Hellenistic era,that look like this one,with the handle almost in the middle.

Do you have some examples? I'd be very curious to see them.

Quote:I was going to make the same observation as Giannis about the way the blade seems to be hung. Are there no civilian knives from this period with upward curving blades? Skinning blades for example that could be elongated into this blade?

I was thinking of the large sickles you describe on the coinage by the way.

I have no idea, as I know next to nothing about civilian knives, but other Anatolian examples of civilian sickles and those shown on the coins have the cutting edge on the inside of the blade.
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#22
Quote:However, with a blade that is curved like this and that lies in a curved scabbard, one would (I think) need to have some extra room in the scabbard so that the handle can be pivoted upwards

If the curve of the blade matches the curve of the sheath, there is no reason it cannot be drawn without wiggle-room. The taper of the blade creates extra room as it is drawn since it is continuously getting narrower than the sheath as it comes free. If the blade's curvature were less uniform that what we have here- curving at the tip alone, let's say, then you'd be correct.

Quote:This first kind of dagger looks like the bottom pruning knife shown in this image

If the etymology of the Spartan Xyele is any guide, the origin of these smaller sickle-shaped blades was probably as a tool for whittling Javelin and spear shafts, so a pruning knife is a good example.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#23
And there are atill people in Peloponnesos that call this small agricultural knife a xyele!I also have one and is very usuful in my trees.
However,Paul,it doesn't mean that it is for whittling javelin or spear shafts.From the terminology you can say it is used for wood work.OK,from the shape you can imagine what kind of wood work that would be.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#24
Quote:
Quote:PS.You're right about the majority of kopis grips.However there are many,and increasingly into the Hellenistic era,that look like this one,with the handle almost in the middle.

Do you have some examples? I'd be very curious to see them.

I have,but you'll have to wait some days.I'll be in my home town in a couple of days and I'll be able to take photos from a book.For the time being,this example may do.
[Image: fresc.gif]
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#25
Quote:However,Paul,it doesn't mean that it is for whittling javelin or spear shafts.From the terminology you can say it is used for wood work.OK,from the shape you can imagine what kind of wood work that would be.

Yea, that's my conjecture. I believe this is why they were such a symbol of Spartan youth.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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#26
Do you have measurment from thr xyales found in Athena Chalkioikos in Sparta?My knife is very small,but has almost exactly the same shape as those finds.
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#27
Quote:If the curve of the blade matches the curve of the sheath, there is no reason it cannot be drawn without wiggle-room. The taper of the blade creates extra room as it is drawn since it is continuously getting narrower than the sheath as it comes free. If the blade's curvature were less uniform that what we have here- curving at the tip alone, let's say, then you'd be correct.

However, the curve of this blade is not so slight that it could be pulled directly out of its scabbard without pivoting. If this blade was suspended from a belt with the point facing down, it would need to be pivoted downward in order to be pulled out. My point is that with the curve of the blade facing upwards, the dagger can be easily pulled outwards and upwards, rather than awkwardly pulled outwards and downwards.

Quote:If the etymology of the Spartan Xyele is any guide, the origin of these smaller sickle-shaped blades was probably as a tool for whittling Javelin and spear shafts, so a pruning knife is a good example.

Curved blades were surely used for a multitude of purposes in antiquity, just as such blades are used for a multitude of purposes today. However, that example in particular looks most similar to the first type of sickle depicted on the Etennan coins.

Quote:I have,but you'll have to wait some days.I'll be in my home town in a couple of days and I'll be able to take photos from a book.For the time being,this example may do.

On the left is a kopis and on the right is a xiphos. What makes you think the sword on the right is a kopis? The shape of the scabbards of both swords with central grips shown on the paintings of the tomb of Lyson and Kallikles indicate nothing about the shape of the blade itself, since both scabbards are symmetrical (insofar as the artist seems to have been able to depict symmetry). Do you have any actual archaeological examples of kopides with central grips?

In relation to this topic, maybe you (or another Greek speaker) could help me out. Here is a scan of P. Arvanitopollous' description of the painted Cretan stele from Demetrias I was discussing.

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... ullos2.bmp

Today the dagger is no longer visible on the painting, but when it was discovered and described by him, it was. My Greek is not so good, so I can only make out the general details (third paragraph down, "he wears a helmet on his head and a xiphos around his long belt"). If you could help me with this, I would really appreciate it.
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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#28
Ruben I have to hurry so i don't miss the bus(and then I won't be able to take photos),but I can tell you the shord to the right is a kopis.Look carefully,yu'll notice there is a guard only fron the left side!You can also see than in Connolly,I think,but he believes this one is a xiphos.Note laso that both scabards are completely streight like a xiphos scabard(nothing to worry about,this is the case in many vases,too,where a hoplite is carrying a kopis in his hand and a streight scabard on his thigh).
Even the sword with the eagle pommel has the hilt in the center of the scabard,no matter it has a guard only in the right side.I hope you understand me.
I have to go now,the bus is leaving in half an houre!
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#29
OK,this might help
[Image: d14g.jpg]
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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#30
Quote:Ruben I have to hurry so i don't miss the bus(and then I won't be able to take photos),but I can tell you the shord to the right is a kopis.Look carefully,yu'll notice there is a guard only fron the left side!

No, there isn't. Two swords from the tomb have birdheaded pommels, and the other two have bilobate decoration. Here are clearer pictures of the two in question:

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... ysonk1.JPG
http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... ysonk2.JPG

As you can clearly see, both have symmetrical and centred bilobate pommels.

Quote:You can also see than in Connolly,I think,but he believes this one is a xiphos.Note laso that both scabards are completely streight like a xiphos scabard(nothing to worry about,this is the case in many vases,too,where a hoplite is carrying a kopis in his hand and a streight scabard on his thigh).

Yes, which is why I think that the shape of the scabbard doesn't indicate one way or the other whether any of these swords is a kopis or a xiphos. As such, the only way to determine that is to look at the grips, and I have not seen sufficient evidence to believe that kopides sometimes had centred, non-curved grips.

Quote:Even the sword with the eagle pommel has the hilt in the center of the scabard,no matter it has a guard only in the right side.I hope you understand me.

This sword doesn't have a centered hilt. Its grip is so thick that it looks like it is centered, but close observation shows that it is not centred, but set to one side.
Ruben

He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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