tinned segmentata - any evidence?

[jc02005]

If you want to learn more and join a group of inteligence go to this website
http://romanarmy.aceboard.com/

[Robert Vermaat]

If you want to learn more and join a group of inteligence go to this website

Inteligence? :wink:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Like wot I lernt at skool?

[Hibernicus]

Here's a blackened seg, oiled not waxed and oiled. Shiny.

But we're tin converts now... only about 10 more segs to tear down tin and rebuild....

[Matthew Amt]

But i'm not imagining a integral legion or even a century with black armour. Since the process of blackening had the advantage to protect the metal, we can imagine black armours could have been worn by a few soldiers who thought it useful or even aesthetic. If it was used, I think blackening would have been for aesthetic or protectives reasons, not for hidding in the woods which make me think to an anachronistic camouflage.

But all our evidence of the Roman idea of aesthetics indicates that they liked silver and gold and bright colors. And we know they were VERY much fashion slaves, with a lot less "individuality" than is common today. If you look at something like a couple pages of belt plates in the Vindonissa catalog, you'll see that they ALL stick to very tight styles, even though they were individually made. You can even compare items from different places and get about the same results. The Romans LIKED conformity and distrusted abnormalities. Up in the northernmost Roman settlements, houses were still built the same way as in Southern Italy, with an open atrium, even thought that's about the least practical form of architecture for those areas. So even a small slice of evidence gives us a pretty good idea of how the Romans are going to do things, and we have a lot more than a small slice.

Writers can twist the truth, or just talking about shiny armour cause it sounds better than dark armours.

What? Look, if you say that all the written evidence is useless because it's either in error or flat lies, why study history? None of it can actually have happened!

May be cause of the artistic convention or surely they did not even know about black armours.

Same as with the written sources! Why throw out all the evidence? And many of these authors and artists were eye-witnesses, or even had military experience themselves.

Just to say, of course i think the armours were shiny, but i might consider the blackening was used from time to time for it's advantages by a few soldiers (let's say in a small lonely fort, deep in the desert )

The only possible advantage that blackening has is rust resistance, and it's far more likely that Roman soldiers simply *cleaned their armor*. THAT's a theory that is backed up by all the evidence. Heck, I think that's why soldiers were issued armor in any case--to keep them busy! (And blackening will NOT stop rust, anyway. If you clean a little rust off blackened armor, guess what! The black goes away and it gets SHINY!!) Small lonely forts on the outermost fringes of the Empire show every sign of being models of Romanism, in every way. The soldiers who served there wanted to appear to be paragons of the Roman army and set themselves above the barbarism around them. Being Roman was important to them, a highly prized status. So was looking like the glorious heroes of old, always described as shining like gods.

In short, why imagine anything? If you say you like history and you want to know what Roman soldiers were like, why not just study what we know? Sure, we don't know everything and never will, but we know enough to get the trends and the big picture and many of the details. The only time we should speculate at all is if there is a significant gap in our knowledge, and even then we should play it as safely as possible. Granted, this is all more important for the application side of things (i.e., reenacting and living history), but it's a good approach even in discussions like this. It keeps wild theories from becoming "facts" in some armchair expert's book, for one thing! Or on the Internet--even more dangerous.

Vale,

Matthew

PS: Sean, it looks like a washed-out photo of a black lorica, to me...

[Hibernicus]

The photo is undoctored, low res.

close up of shoulder... oiled not waxed and oiled, but shiny

[sulla felix]

So the oil makes it shiny....what oil would the Romans have used? I think olive oil would have just made a sticky mess and attracted all the dust on the battlefield/camp/road etc. Goodbye shiny seg?

[Dan Howard]

To my knowledge mail was never tinned.

Mail was definitely tinned in Medieval Europe and in the Middle East. I don't know whether there is evidence of Roman mail being tinned. The medieval mail that has bee tinned definitely does not look like it was hot-dipped. According to Erik the only way he can get mail to look like the medieval examples is to use electroplating. We have no idea how the original samples were tinned. Only that they weren't hot-dipped

[martijn.wijnhoven]

Mail was definitely tinned in Medieval Europe and in the Middle East. I don't know whether there is evidence of Roman mail being tinned. The medieval mail that has bee tinned definitely does not look like it was hot-dipped. According to Erik the only way he can get mail to look like the medieval examples is to use electroplating. We have no idea how the original samples were tinned. Only that they weren't hot-dipped

This is very interesting. Do you have some references to this being done, as I would like to know more about this.

Thank you for any help.

Best wishes,

Martijn

[Matt Lukes]

Hey folks, this is getting way off-topic here- Florian wanted to know about the evidence for tinned/silvered segmentata plates, so could we leave mail and discussions of protective coatings get back to that please?

I've heard of the single example fragment from Xanten too, but am unaware of whether the coating can be demonstrated to be protective or simply decorative as so much other silvering was- does anyone have any specifcs or properly-referenced other examples of coated iron armour elements?

[martijn.wijnhoven]

Matt,

You are right.

Florian, sorry for that, I got carried away.

Dan, PM send.

With kind regards,

Martijn

[Dan Howard]

This is very interesting. Do you have some references to this being done, as I would like to know more about this.

Send Erik a pm. He has done more work in this area than I have.

[Hibernicus]

tinned, oh so shiny!

[Magnus]

Thanks for posting those pictures Sean. They prove my point exactly.

When in direct sunlight, the armour looks shiny, as we can see in those photos. However, closer examination proves without a doubt that in normal lighting conditions out of direct sunlight, the armour is clearly dark in colour. All artistic depictions show the armour being one colour...not dark with highlighted areas. Thus the armour simply can't be forge blackened or blued, otherwise the visual evidence we have would clearly show that.

Also interesting to note that with minimal light, tinned or matte finished armour looks bright regardless.

Out of curiousity, what's easier for you guys to do...tinned seggie plates or blackened/oiled/waxed?

What method have you found holds up better to abuse and normal wear?

[Magnus]

tinned, oh so shiny!

Hey Sean, who's seggie is that guy wearing...the plates look out of wack..lol.