tinned segmentata - any evidence?

[Marcus Mummius]

Did analysis of Roman hamata show evidence of blueing or blackening?

I'm still unsure if vinegar (weak acetic acid) would help to remove rust. I know it removes oxidation on cupric alloys but also rust from iron and steel?

Vale,
Jef

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

But what kind of oil did they use?

[Marcus Mummius]

But what kind of oil did they use?

We don't know :wink:

Several plant based oils were known to the romans...

[Petre82]

I had the pleasure of leaving my hamata outside overnight a while ago and was rewarded by RUST! :twisted: After using a bunch of methods already mentioned, I eventually used engine degreaser I purchased from a local car shop, and cleaned it easily and quickly. Afterwards, I hosed it off and let it dry outside for a few minutes and then oiled it.
To protect the leather I had oiled it before hand, but it probably wasn't necessary since I did not leave the degreaser on.

[Marcus Mummius]

I had the pleasure of leaving my hamata outside overnight a while ago and was rewarded by RUST! :twisted: After using a bunch of methods already mentioned, I eventually used engine degreaser I purchased from a local car shop, and cleaned it easily and quickly. Afterwards, I hosed it off and let it dry outside for a few minutes and then oiled it.
To protect the leather I had oiled it before hand, but it probably wasn't necessary since I did not leave the degreaser on.

That's interesting! And did it clean all the rust away? Degreaser? That's for removing grease, no? How comes it removes rust?

Vale,

[Aetius Helvius Merula]

^^Hmmm, so that's why..... :lol: degreaser tip is good to know. As a DIY mechanic I have such things at the ready. OK, back on track...

Hello

I think the best method to avoid rust in an hamata is to blackening/ blueing it.

It means to get the surface of the iron to form a black or blue oxid (magnetite, i think...). Traditionally, there are two ways to make it:

-Quimic tractament.
-Put the iron red hot and then make a immersion in oil. THAT?S DANGEROUS! A cloud of toxic vapor will made with the immersion.

The thickness of the black surface, the utilization and the weather makes a lot of diferences in the util life of that coating. But i think it will remains some years.

And it's very efective against oxid. My pugio sheat is blackened anf dont get any rust.

So in essence, you're talking about tempering the steel to black it?

[Paullus Scipio]

Living beside the sea, rust is a perpetuaal problem for me. I have successfully eliminated rust on helmets, segmentata and hamata by soaking 24 hours or so in ordinary white vinegar, which is afterward washed and dried - but be warned, it does leave the surface dull, and re-polishing is a laborious chore !! (

[Hibernicus]

I hot dipped a section of riveted rings. Poor results. Rings stuck together

I heated it up and as the tin stated to flow I gently shook it until the tin cooled and "ta-da!" no links we tinned together!

[Matthew Amt]

Blackening is a great idea for the INside of armor or a helmet, which originally would simply be left black from the forging process. But there is NO evidence for the OUTside of armor or helmets ever being black or blued. Frescoes and mosaics show armor as silver/white or yellow/gold, there are numerous references to shining or bright armor, and many helmets and other objects were tinned or silvered. Shiny is the way to go. The same for scabbards!

Seems to me that on any spot on a lorica which is rubbing or chafing enough to rub the tinning off, that same rubbing or chafing would also prevent that spot from rusting.

Valete,

Matthew

[Dagann]

Blackening is a great idea for the INside of armor or a helmet, which originally would simply be left black from the forging process. But there is NO evidence for the OUTside of armor or helmets ever being black or blued. Frescoes and mosaics show armor as silver/white or yellow/gold, there are numerous references to shining or bright armor, and many helmets and other objects were tinned or silvered. Shiny is the way to go. The same for scabbards!

During Middle Age, the blackening process or painting could be used to keep pieces of armour protected from weather.
Why not the same for the roman period? I'm not saying all of the helmets, etc.., but a few of them.
Of course dazling/ shimmering armours and helmets are more spectacular on the battlground or in a fresco than dark ones.

[Hibernicus]

Matt's mostly correct.

However, the forging process leaves the iron sheet blackened and when forge blackened iron is waxed and/or oiled it relfects light like a mirror looking shiny to an observer.

However, I am a convert to tinning. Forge blackened iron sheet can be tinned and tinning sure does a great job of making a seg shiny!

Tin Tin Tin! Hi Ho Tinner!

[sulla felix]

Hib,

Look at these pictures of the fine fellows from RMRS (XIIII GMV) on a fine spring day in the UK (not too many of those!):





I know which segs look shiny to me!

[Matthew Amt]

During Middle Age, the blackening process or painting could be used to keep pieces of armour protected from weather.
Why not the same for the roman period?

That's great for the middle ages, but there's just no evidence that the Romans ever did it. Why go with speculation when you have a proven alternative? Heck, we even hear about ambushes that were given away by the sun glinting off armor! So they didn't even go with darkening when it would have helped.

Of course dazling/ shimmering armours and helmets are more spectacular on the battlground or in a fresco than dark ones.

Exactly. These guys were all about color and shine. They wanted to shine like gods. We know there were battles in which the enemy simply broke and fled before the Romans even advanced, scared off the battlefield just by the sight! The modern idea of ninjas and bikers and goth-rockers just didn't apply. Roman shields were decorated with flowers and stars! When Crassus put on a black cloak before battle, his men made him change it because it was bad luck!

Matt's mostly correct.

However, the forging process leaves the iron sheet blackened and when forge blackened iron is waxed and/or oiled it relfects light like a mirror looking shiny to an observer.

Oh, I'm entirely correct, as always! Artists can generally tell white and yellow paint from black, so I kinda trust the artwork. Roman writers who describe the color of armor use the same words they use to describe silver or jewels. You simply can't stretch "shiny" to "black", I'm afraid.

Great photos, Sulla!

Valete,

Matthew

[Magnus]

That is a great photo...certainly highlights the contrast of the two finishes. There's no way that every artist would have portrayed ALL armour in lighter colours if some were left blued/blackened.

And the blackened armour only looks shiny if it's in direct sunlight, otherwise it's quite dark in colour. So why would the artists depict the armour to be light in colour?

[Dagann]

Great pics.

During Middle Age, the blackening process or painting could be used to keep pieces of armour protected from weather.
Why not the same for the roman period?

That's great for the middle ages, but there's just no evidence that the Romans ever did it. Why go with speculation when you have a proven alternative? Heck, we even hear about ambushes that were given away by the sun glinting off armor! So they didn't even go with darkening when it would have helped.

I agree with you.
But i'm not imagining a integral legion or even a century with black armour. Since the process of blackening had the advantage to protect the metal, we can imagine black armours could have been worn by a few soldiers who thought it useful or even aesthetic. If it was used, I think blackening would have been for aesthetic or protectives reasons, not for hidding in the woods which make me think to an anachronistic camouflage.

Oh, I'm entirely correct, as always! Artists can generally tell white and yellow paint from black, so I kinda trust the artwork. Roman writers who describe the color of armor use the same words they use to describe silver or jewels. You simply can't stretch "shiny" to "black", I'm afraid.

Writers can twist the truth, or just talking about shiny armour cause it sounds better than dark armours.
And if these black armours have been real, i guess they have been worn by so few soldiers than the author could not have seen them or decided to say nothing about these few guys with these strange dark amours.

And the blackened armour only looks shiny if it's in direct sunlight, otherwise it's quite dark in colour. So why would the artists depict the armour to be light in colour?

May be cause of the artistic convention or surely they did not even know about black armours.

Just to say, of course i think the armours were shiny, but i might consider the blackening was used from time to time for it's advantages by a few soldiers (let's say in a small lonely fort, deep in the desert )