tinned segmentata - any evidence?

[Flavius Promotus]

Hey Matt,
thank you for bringing the discussion back on track
(laudes added)

Does nobody have any evidence for tinned seggy plates except the Xanten fragment?

Florianus

[Hibernicus]

I believe that it proves my point, that forge blackened and polished armor can be shiny.

But, it is all speculation since we have few seg plates with their original surface (inside and outside) intact... the Corb Hoard is a prime example of that.

[sulla felix]

But is it the oil that makes it shiny? If it is I go back to my original question - what oil was used?

[Magnus]

I believe that it proves my point, that forge blackened and polished armor can be shiny.

Yes, no doubt, but the larger point is that the general colour of the armour is black. Where this the case with the Romans, the artists would have painted the armour black, not white. My point was that the surviving colour evidence we have shows the main colour of the armour, not highlights or shadows. White can't be confused with forge blackened steel i'm afraid.

[Hibernicus]

Oil on the forge blackend seg pictured in the other thread? A nut oil, probably walnut, maybe palm.

We no longer use petroleum based oils or modern polishes, nor are the bare steel segs in the group polished with power tools or sealed with modern products... all done by hand... wool pad or natural horsehair pad, sea sponge with very mild abrassives.. beeswax to seal, oils to shiny it up even more.

What are there, one or two paintings or mosaics (in Pompeii?), depicting what is likely a seg? I don't know. I think Matt Amt had a list, maybe some pics?? Matt??... Other written accounts during the time segs were in use? Did the artist or writer observe the armor or army marching by? How close was he? Or did he paint/write from the accounts of others? .... reference Trajan's Column.

Paint can change tint and hue over time. Did the original grey blue hue fade to a light grey that we now observe? We'll never know. Mosaic coloration can change with time as well ... not saying it did but do any of us know for sure?

And what scholar translated the Latin or Greek word into the English word: "shiny"? Maybe it's better translated as "glinty" or "bright" or "polished".. .... did the translator(s) know anything about armor and iron and steel?

I'm not arguing that forge black iron was the norm, but that it can be made shiny.... on cloudy days? ...from a distance it still reflects light.

But, more importantly, we do not know how the segs were finished.

Only one or two (?) examples from Carnutum with tinning. Didn't I read somewhere that there might actually be more now that archaeologists know what to look for? .. or that they now know not to scrape off and discard the encrustation on a seg plate for the possibility that it may contain some evidence for tinning?

All other segs finds do not have enough or any original surface left to determine the original surface treatment... reference the Corbridge Hoard.

Maybe the depictions of "white" armor and written accounts of "shiny" during the time segs were in use were from observing tinned armor!

Or maybe from observing an entire army with forge blackened iron that's waxed and oiled! If that was their reference point .... then light reflecting off of polished surfaces would/could appear shiny, bright, polished...

Its all speculation: bare steel, tinned, and forge blackened. We do not know.

Our experiences (mine, yours, his, their's... ) with modern steel surface treatment tell us nothing definitive about Roman iron sheet. Even the iron I am using for my forged iron seg is "conditional", since its scrap iron from the 19th C and/or early 20th C.

I am in the tinned to make it "shiny" camp.

Considering all "options"; consdering all of LEG IX's accumulated experiences with all three surface treatments, tinning it, in my opinion, makes the most of that practical Roman sense.

[Hibernicus]

Out of curiousity, what's easier for you guys to do...tinned seggie plates or blackened/oiled/waxed?

They both take just about as long. Its why we're tinning instead of blackening

What method have you found holds up better to abuse and normal wear?

The tin wears well, holds up well. .. even in SCA combat!