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Vexilifer with or without animal skin?
#31
Quote:It seems to me that much of this debate revolves around an inherent notion we in modern societies have about the concept of uniforms

True !'uniformity' in the sense of 'identical' is a product of the industrial age. As can be seen by Roman helmets, of which there are so many types, 'uniformity' in the Ancient simply meant 'everyone has a helmet, sword and shield ( of some sort or another)'

Quote:It seems to me that the evidence we have does not suggest that a pattern exists
........except that the pattern I originally set out holds true for the period between, say, Augustus and Trajan, which is the period we have most iconographic evidence for (which is why it is the most popular with re-enactors, too, of course! Smile )
Quote:do not known what the disks on vexilia actually mean, or if whether the hand at the top actually represents the maniple).
...actually, in the period under discussion, discs don't appear on Vexilla, but you are quite right - no-one has been able to definitely decipher their meaning on signa, despite many theories. The manus idea on the other hand is so likely as to be almost certainly correct. ( Manus/hand symbolised 'handful'/maniple)
Quote:So it's something like an acting post rather than anything truly formal?
Yes, again for the period under discussion a vexillation was a detachment from a parent unit of varying size.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#32
Quote:
SOCL:f720am40 Wrote:It seems to me that the evidence we have does not suggest that a pattern exists
........except that the pattern I originally set out holds true for the period between, say, Augustus and Trajan, which is the period we have most iconographic evidence for (which is why it is the most popular with re-enactors, too, of course! Smile )
Quote:do not known what the disks on vexilia actually mean, or if whether the hand at the top actually represents the maniple).
...actually, in the period under discussion, discs don't appear on Vexilla, but you are quite right - no-one has been able to definitely decipher their meaning on signa, despite many theories. The manus idea on the other hand is so likely as to be almost certainly correct. ( Manus/hand symbolised 'handful'/maniple)
Oops. :oops: Signa, right...that's what I meant. :oops:

Being an acting post, wouldn't it seem more likely that nothing formal would exist since it's rather at the whim and discretion of the person creating the vexillation? Somewhat ad hoc?
[Image: RAT_signature2.png]
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#33
Quote:Being an acting post, wouldn't it seem more likely that nothing formal would exist since it's rather at the whim and discretion of the person creating the vexillation? Somewhat ad hoc?
....well, we are guessing, of course, but I'd bet you are almost certainly correct - we certainly don't seem to have any permanent rank of vexillifer......ad hoc certainly appears to be the right words !! :lol:
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
#34
Quote:....we certainly don't seem to have any permanent rank of vexillifer......ad hoc certainly appears to be the right words !!

Oh! Yes we do! .....Here's just a few of the gravestones....

We have auxiliary infantry, cavalry, Legions and even Cohors Vigiles..

AE 1936, 00063
Mauretania Caesariensis : Benian / Ala Milliaria
D(is) M(anibus) s(acrum) / Egnatia Rufi/na Vernamies/sa vixit annis / XLV m(ensibus) X d(iebus) VI / Caecilius Vic/tor vex(illarius) fili/us matri dul/cissimae / fecit

AE 1951, 00145
Mauretania Caesariensis : Rapidi, Ruines de / Rapidum
Diis(!) Manib(us) / Antonius Vale/ns vex(illarius) coh(ortis) II Sardor(um) / mil(itavit) a(nnos) X[3] vix(it) a(nnos) XL

AE 1957, 00341
Moesia inferior : Montana / Municipium Montanensium
Dianae Reginae Aurel(ius) / Titus vexill(arius) eq(uitum) leg(ionis) / I Ital(icae) Gordianae a(gens) v(ice) / [in] reg(ione) Mont(anensium) cu(m) / suis ex voto pos(uit) / v(otum) s(olvit) l(ibens) m(erito)

AE 1969/70, 00421 = AE 1971, 00277 = AE 1992, 01276
Germania superior : Kaiseraugst / Castrum Rauracense
] / [alae] Moes[icae] / [torqu]atae [h(ic) s(itus) e(st)] / [3]us vex[illa]/[rius a]lae His[pa]/[nae fac(iendum) c]uravi[t]

CIL 03, 01583 = CIL 03, 08018 = D 07247 = IDR-02, 00135 = AE 2001, +01722
Dacia : Drobeta-Turnu Severin / Drobeta
D(is) M(anibus) / Iul(ius) Herculanus / dec(urio) s(h)col(ae) fab(rum) i{i}mag(inifer) / vix(it) ann(os) LXXX Iul(ia) Viv/enia coniux Iul(ius) / Marcianus fil(ius) im/{m}ag(inifer) s(h)col(ae) fab(rum) vix(it) / ann(os) XXVII Aur(elius) Iuli/us mil(es) c(o)hor(tis) I Sag(ittariorum) im/{m}ag(inifer) vix(it) ann(os) XXX Iul(ius) / Marcellinus fil(ius) / vexil(larius) s(h)col(ae) fab(rum) vix(it) / ann(os) XXV Iul(ia) Ma/rcia fil(ia) vix(it) / ann(os) VIIII Iul(ia) / Marcel(l)ina nep(os) / vix(it) ann(os) IIII Viv/enia mater se viva f(ecit)

CIL 03, 02744
Dalmatia : Much / Andetrium
Turr[a]n[i]us Fir() / vexil(larius) coh(ortis) I Bel(gicae) / Mercurio / v(otum) s(olvit) l(ibens) m(erito)

CIL 03, 03261 (p 1674)
Pannonia inferior : Cserevich
] / Dalmatia / mil(es) coh(ortis) II / Alpinor(um) vex(illarius) / ann(orum) XXX stipen/dior(um) XVI / [

CIL 03, 07799 = IDR-03-05-02, 00477
Dacia : Alba Iulia / Apulum
D(is) M(anibus) / Ael(io) Genia[li] / ex singul(ari) / vix(it) an(nos) XXXII / vexillarius(?) / Valerius(?) libr(arius) / pri(mus) heres et / Atticus sec(undus) he(res) / b(ene) m(erenti) p(osuerunt)

CIL 03, 07900 = IDR-03-02, 00186
Dacia : Sarmizegetusa
[D]eo Aetern(o) / [A]ur(elius) Marin(us) / [M]arini f(ilius) vex(illarius) / [col]l(egii) fabror(um) / [pro] salute su/[a et su]orum [ex] / [vo]to / [pos]uit

CIL 03, 08762 = D 02594
Dalmatia : Salona
C(aius) Val(erius) [3] f(ilius) Azinas / Proc(u)l[us] eques / coh(ortis) I [U]lp(iae) ve[x(illarius)] / equit[um coh(ortis)] / I Belg(arum) dec(urio) equit(um) / coh(ortis) eiusdem / hunc sepulcrum / vivos(!) paravi mihi / et Apulei(a)e Sabin(a)e / uxori meae lib(ertis) / libertabusque / h(oc) m(onumentum) h(eredem) n(on) s(equetur)

CIL 03, 09739 = D 02579
Dalmatia : Gardun / Tilurium
]EMANS / [3]PLATORIS / [Da]esitias vexill(arius) / [e]quit(um) coh(ortis) I Belgar(um) / turma Valeri / Proculi ann(orum) XLV / stipendior(um) XXIV h(ic) s(itus) e(st) / fieri curavit Iulia Ves() / coniunx

CIL 03, 11081 = RIU-01, 00281 = RHP 00106 = AE 1893, 00003
Pannonia superior : Szentpalpuszta
[D(is) M(anibus)] / M(arcus) Aur(elius) [3]/us vex(illarius) al(ae) p(rimae) C(ontariorum) Anto(ninianae) / et Elv(iae) Bon(a)e c(oniugi) car(issimae) / et f(iliae) Aur(eliae) Valerin(a)e / et Ae(liae) Sabin(a)e et Elv(io) Verecundo an(norum) LXX / Pulc(h)r(a)e(?) Suri an(norum) LX / et Elv(io) Vitali an(norum) XVIII / et Au(relio) Ma(n)suetiano an(norum) / VII et Ae(lio) Florido / M(arcus) Aur(elius) Valerianus / sib(i) [et] su[i]s vivi f(ecit)

CIL 05, 04903 = InscrIt-10-05, 01126 = D 02468
Venetia et Histria / Regio X : Bovarno
L(ucius) Salvius / C(ai) f(ilius) Fab(ia) / vexillarius / veter(anorum) leg(ionis) IIII sibi / et Popiliai(!) / T(iti) l(ibertae) / Hispan[a]i et Capito/ni f(ilio) et Priscai f(iliae) et / Firmo f(ilio)

CIL 06, 00215 (p 3004) = CIL 06, 30717
Roma
Vex(illarius) L(ucius) Locer(ius) L(uci) f(ilius) Sab(ina) Constitutus Volaterra / opt(io) C(aius) Iulius C(ai) f(ilius) Cam(ilia) Priminus Ravenna fac(tus) |(centurio) / scolam vetustate corruptam pecunia publica restituendam / [curarunt it]em aed[icul]am de suo marmore adornaverunt

CIL 06, 00221 (p 3004, 3755) = D 02160
Roma
C(aio) Clodio Crispino co(n)s(ule) / Q(uinto) Rammio Martiale pr(aefecto) C(aio) Maesi[o] Tertio s(ub)pr(aefecto) / L(ucio) Numerio Albano tr(ibuno) / |(centuria) C(ai) Iuli C(ai) f(ilii) Serg(ia) Rufi Iader principales / infra scripti aediculam et Genium centuriae d(ono) d(ederunt) // b(ene)f(iciarius) s(ub)pr(aefecti) Q(uintus) Marius Arn(ensi) Proculus Hist(onio) / vex(illarius) in |(centuria) Sex(tus) Iulius Trom(entina) Clemens Vet(ulonia?) / optio in |(centuria) C(aius) Lucretius An(iensi) Verecund(us) F[o]r(o) I(ulio) / tess(erarius) in |(centuria) C(aius) Messius Arn(ensi) Aper Hist(onio) / b(ene)f(iciarius) trib(uni) L(ucius) Postumius Pom(ptina) Maxim(us) Dert(ona) / lib(rarius) VR s(ub)pr(aefecti) C(aius) Antistius Mae(cia) Earin(us) Neap(oli) // lib(rarius) coh(ortis) C(aius) Occius Arn(ensi) Similis Bler(a) / sec(utor) tr(ibuni) M(arcus) Terentius Pap(iria) Callistus Ti[c](ino) / buc(inator) in |(centuria) M(arcus) Nonnius Fab(ia) Probus R[o]ma / hor(rearius) leg(ionis?) C(aius) Peturcius Cru(stumina) Pudens Int(er)am(na) / sec(utor) tr(ibuni) Ti(berius) Claudius Men(enia) Latinus Sur(rento) / ex opt(ione) tran(slatus) in st(ationem?) L(ucius) Aponius An(iensi) Maternus F[o]r[o] I(ulio)

CIL 06, 00226 = Denkm 00057
Roma
Herculi invicto sacr(um) / Genio num(eri) eq(uitum) sing(ularium) / Augg(ustorum) nn(ostrorum) pro salute / Impp(eratorum) C(a)esar(um) L(uci) Septimi / Severi et M(arci) Aureli An/tonini [et Get(a)e C(a)esari(s)] / et Iuliae Aug(ustae) matri / castror(um) et Aug[g(ustorum)] / [[e]t [Pl]autill(a)e [A]ug(ustae) e[t]] / [C(ai) F[u]lvi [Pla]u[tia]ni [p]r(aefecti)] / [pr(aetorio) c(larissimo) v(iro) t[o]tiusque] do/mus divin(a)e et trib(unis) / Occio Valente et Octavio / Pisoni et ||(centurionibus) exserc(itatoribus) Fl(avio) / Titiano et Aurel(io) Lupo / C(aius) Iulius Secundus / vexil(larius) (a)ere suo deo do(num) d(edit) // Dedik(ata!) Id(i)b(us) Sept(embribus) / Severo III et / Antonino Au/gg(ustis) nn(ostris) co(n)s(ulibus)

CIL 06, 00617 (p 3006, 3757)
Roma
A(ulus) Satrius / Urbicus / vexillarius / |(centuria) Pomponi / domo Florentia / Silvanum / ex voto posuit

Cohors Vigilum..
CIL 06, 02965
Roma
M(arco) Papirio / Prisco mil(iti) / coh(ortis) II vig(ilum) / |(centuria) Alinnae Firmi / C(aius) Manlius Vitalis / vexillarius / |(centuria) eadem / posuit

CIL 06, 02987 (p 3842) = D 02169
Roma
Q(uintus) Iulius Q(uinti) f(ilius) / Galatus Thysdro / mil(es) coh(ortis) VI vigil(um) / |(centuria) Lucani Augurini / milit(avit) ann(os) XIV in eis(dem) / secutor tribuni ann(os) II / beneficiarius / eiusdem ann(os) II / vexillarius ann(os) III / vix(it) ann(os) XXXVII / t(estamento) p(oni) i(ussit)

CIL 06, 37295 = AE 1902, 00198 = AE 1903, +00118
Roma
] / [fact(us) vexill]ar(ius) [3] / [fact(us)] b(ene)f(iciarius) subp[r(aefecti)] / [fa]ct(us) b(ene)f(iciarius) pr(aefecti) / fact(us) tab(ularius) b(ene)f(iciarius) [pr(aefecti)] / fact(us) comm(entariensis) pr(aefecti) / fact(us) cornic(ularius) [pr(aefecti)] / [3 eme]ritu[s


CIL 08, 10629 (p 2731) = CIL 08, 16549 = ILAlg-01, 03117 = D 02329
Numidia Tebessa / Theveste
M(arcus) Iulius M(arci) f(ilius) Qui(rina) / Maternus Aug(usto)n(emeto) / mil(es) leg(ionis) III Aug(ustae) |(centuria) / Cri(s)pini vix(it) ann(os) / XXVII mil(itavit) ann(os) V h(ic) s(itus) e(st) / Sex(tus) Valerius Att(i)cinus / vexillarius eq(uitum) leg(ionis) III Aug(ustae)

CIL 08, 21667 = AE 1893, 00067
Mauretania Caesariensis :'Ain Temouchent / Albulae
D(is) M(anibus) s(acrum) / Claudius Lucianus / vix(it) an(nos) III me(n)se(s) X Cla/udius Rogatus pater / vexil(l)ar(i)us (co)hor(tis) Sar(dorum) / pientis(s)imo fecit / mater Marina

CIL 11, 01438 = InscrIt-07-01, 00020
Etruria / Regio VII : Pisa / Pisae
C(aius) Virrius Iucundus / vexil(larius) coh(ortis) II vig(ilum) / |(centuria) Viserti Latini / milit(avit) ann(os) VI men(ses) VII dies XVIIII / in eis tesserar(ius) optio / vexillarius / vix(it) ann(os) XXVII / aram cum base sua / t(estamento) p(oni) i(ussit) / arbitratu Luciliae Lacaenae / et C(aius) Virri Iucundi f(ilii)

To the Genius of the vexillum and imago...
Confusedhock:
CIL 13, 07753 = D 02349
Germania superior : Niederbieber
In h(onorem) d(omus) d(ivinae) Genio vexillar(iorum) et / imaginif(erorum) Attianus Coresi vex(illarius) / Fortionius Constitutus / imag(inifer) signum cum (a)edic(u)la / et tab(u)l(am) marmoream d(onum) d(ederunt) d(edicaverunt) / Imp(eratore) d(omino) n(ostro) Gordi(a)no Aug(usto) et Aviola co(n)s(ulibus)

CIL 13, 11938 = RSO 00023
Germania superior : Kastel / Mogontiacum
I(ovi) O(ptimo) M(aximo) / Meloni/us Nigr/inus vex(illarius) / [coh(ortis) I Lig(urum)] / [v(otum) s(olvit) l(ibens) l(aetus) m(erito)] // I(ovi) O(ptimo) M(aximo) / Meloni/[us Nig]/[rinus] / [v(otum) s(olvit) l(ibens) l(aetus) m(erito)]

Batavian Equites Singulari Augusti...
:wink:

Denkm 00710
Roma
[D(is) M(anibus)] / [Ulpi]o Novio/[ma]gi / [3] Batavo vixit / [anno]s XVII / [T(itus) Aureliu]s Verax vexil(larius) / [et T(itus) Aureli]us Sextus / [fratri pienti]ssi[m]o / [

Praetorians...

EA-004508 = AE 1991, 00171
Roma
D(is) M(anibus) / M(arco) Aureli/o Vi[cto]ri e/q(uiti) c[oh(ortis) 3] pr(aetoriae) / qu[i v(ixit) a(nnos)] XXX / mi[l(itavit) an]n(os) / XI Iu[liu]s Se/verinus vex(illarius) / et Arruntiu/s Celer b(ene) m(erenti) f(unus) f(ieri) f(ecerunt)

ILJug-03, 01931
Dalmatia : Hardomilje
] imag(inifer) et / vexi[l(larius)

IScM-02, 00345 = AE 1957, 00193
Moesia inferior
D(is) M(anibus) / Claudi(a)e Mat/rona(e) vixit an/nis XXXV Valens / eques vexil(larius) coh(ortis) / I Cil(icum) et Val[

LegioXVApo 00073 = AE 1975, 00783 = AE 1993, 01562
Cappadocia : Trapezus
D(is) M(anibus) / T(ito) Aurelio Apolinario / militi / leg(ionis) XV Apol(linaris) / domo Caesar(ea) / stip(endiorum) VI vexill(arius) leg(ionis) eiusdem / b(ene) m(erenti)

Philippi 00522 = AE 1969/70, 00583 = AE 1974, 00589 = AE 1985, +00721
Macedonia : Grammeni / Philippi
Ti(berius) Claudius / Maximus vet(eranus) / [s(e)] v(ivo) f(aciendum) c(uravit) militavit / eque(s) in leg(ione) VII C(laudia) P(ia) F(ideli) fac/tus qu(a)estor equit(um) / singularis legati le/gionis eiusdem vexil/larius equitum item / bello Dacico ob virtu/te(m) donis donatus ab Im/p(eratore) Domitiano factus dupli(carius) / a divo Tr<a=O>iano in ala secu(n)d(a) / Pannoniorum a quo et fa©/tus explorator in bello Da/cico et ob virtute(m) bis donis / donatus bello Dacico et / Parthico et ab eode(m) factus / decurio in ala eade(m) quod / cepisset Decebalu(m) et caput / eius pertulisset ei Ranissto/ro missus voluntarius ho/nesta missione a Terent[io Scau]/riano consulare [exerci]/tus provinciae nov[ae Mes]/[opotamiae

RHP 00417 = AEA 1983/92, 00249 = AE 1992, 01438
Noricum : Klosterneuburg / Astura
D(is) M(anibus) / Firmani Cass/ronis arm(orum) cus(todis) / coh(ortis) I [s]ag(ittariorum) stip(endiorum) / XIII domo / Lai Dasillus / vex(illarius) h(eres) f(aciendum) c(uravit)

Barathes the flag maker...
RIB 01171 = AE 1914, 00187
Britannia : Corbridge / Corstopitum
[D(is)] M(anibus) / [Ba]rathes Pal/morenus vexil(l)a(rius) / vixit an(n)os LXVIII

RIU-03, 00869 = RHP 00441
Pannonia inferior : Szentendre / Ulcisia
Genio t(urmae) et / Epon(a)e Reg(inae) / Iul(ius) Victor / eq(ues) vexi(llarius) coh(ortis) / n(ova) S(everianae) Gordian(ae) / S(urorum) s(agittariae) in honore(m) t(urmae) / v(otum) s(olvit) l(ibens) m(erito) / Imp(eratore) d(omino) n(ostro) Gordiano / II et {et} Pomp(eiano) co(n)s(ulibus) / Kal(endis) Iun(iis)

RIU-05, 01217 = RHP 00347 = Schober 00230
Pannonia inferior : Dunaujvaros / Intercisa
D(is) M(anibus) / Cl(audius) Antonius / vixit annis / V Antoni{n}/us R(u)ssus / vexillarius / f(i)l(io) m(e)r(enti) p(osuit)

RIU-05, 01238 = AE 1906, 00116 = RHP 00256
Pannonia inferior : Dunaujvaros / Intercisa
D(is) M(anibus) / Lentinus Pr/udentis eq(ues) coh(ortis) / III Bat(avorum) an(norum) XLV stip(endiorum) XX / Germanus vex(illarius[
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#35
Ah, Peroni, what a great "gotcha" ! :lol: :lol: So it would appear there was an official rank of vexillifer after all ?

Just one little thing though....how many of these date to the period under discussion i.e. Augustus through to Trajan ??? :? ?
( just before I bow down, muttering, we're not worthy..... ) :oops: :oops:
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#36
I'd say about 55%. I make this estimate on the grounds of the names of the auxiliary units mentioned.
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#37
Thanks Adrian, that's a great list. I was hoping someone would chime in with one Smile

Is vexillarius the name for the person carrying the vexillum? So vexilifer is a modern made up thing? Or does vexillarius just mean that the person in question was part of a certain vexillatio?

Vale,
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#38
As I understand it, the vexillarius was the flag bearer.

Although we do have the terms 'Imagnifer', 'Signifer' and 'Aquilifer'. :?
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#39
OK, now that, thanks to Adrian's great detective work, we've established that the Vexilarius (not Vexillifer) was a regular rank, how many of the tombstones listed above have images, and do any of these show the vexillarius wearing an animal skin?
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA

"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
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#40
Looking through the RA.com imagebase for standard bearers. here's some of the vexilarii

There are only two in the database, and neither have animal skin present (Sunday best kit?)

Marcus Aurelius Sossius: 1st half, 3rd C AD
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

Unknown, Szentendre Date: Early 3rd C
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/
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#41
Are signifers still depicted with animal skins in the 3rd century AD :?:
Jef Pinceel
a.k.a.
Marcvs Mvmmivs Falco

LEG XI CPF vzw
>Q SER FEST
www.LEGIOXI.be
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#42
Another version of the Hadrian DISCIPLINA sestertius:

[Image: disciplina.jpg]

Here, the second guy in line behind the emperor is clearly a vexillarius, and he is clearly wearing an animal pelt. Interesting that none of these soldiers is wearing armor, though— they all appear to be in their cloaks and tunics.
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA

"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
Reply
#43
Quote:As I understand it, the vexillarius was the flag bearer.

Although we do have the terms 'Imagnifer', 'Signifer' and 'Aquilifer'
Quote:we've established that the Vexilarius (not Vexillifer) was a regular rank

.....I'm not so sure of that ! On checking, while the '...ifers' are part of the normal rank structure, and could, for example, be promoted to centurion, I can't find a single example of a vexillarius being in the rank structure. That would seem logical, given that it was the standard of a temporary detachment (I'm excluding cavalry units, who also carried vexilla as standards and whose senior 'standard bearer' was termed vexillarius) which didn't happen to every unit. That might also explain why he's an '...arius' not an '....ifer'.
Thus vexillarius/flag bearer is likely to be what is called an 'appointment' in modern armies rather than a rank (e.g. Adjutant, who is usually a lieutenant in rank).
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
Reply
#44
Quote:Here, the second guy in line behind the emperor is clearly a vexillarius, and he is clearly wearing an animal pelt. Interesting that none of these soldiers is wearing armor, though— they all appear to be in their cloaks and tunics.
...again it is difficult to be sure, at least to my eyes. :? It is very worn. The third and fourth figures from the right (the two signiferi) seem to have pelts ( dare one say the snouts look lion-like? ), over the cheekpieces of helmets, and the pelts extend down onto the shoulder and, presumably, down the back. The second figure from the right ( immediately behind the Emperor) seems different. To me, he seems to have cheekpieces fully visible, and a low peak or brow-piece visible on his helmet(?) and he doesn't seem to have a pelt over his shoulder ( we can see all the neckline of his paenula , unlike the other two where it is interrupted by the pelt ).
It is also difficult to say if the vexillarius is even depicted! The third and fourth guys seem to be carrying signa on their left shoulders, but the vexillum is well behind the second guy, who doesn't look as if he could be carrying it...........
Equally, one shouldn't perhaps read too much into the die-cutter's depiction....there are only 9 legs for 5 guys - number two from the right, behind the Emperor, is clearly missing his right leg ( maybe meant to be behind the Emperor somewhere ? Smile lol:
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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#45
Quote:It is also difficult to say if the vexillarius is even depicted! The third and fourth guys seem to be carrying signa on their left shoulders, but the vexillum is well behind the second guy, who doesn't look as if he could be carrying it......Equally, one shouldn't perhaps read too much into the die-cutter's depiction....there are only 9 legs for 5 guys - number two from the right, behind the Emperor, is clearly missing his right leg ( maybe meant to be behind the Emperor somewhere ?

Maybe "clearly" wasn't the right word... To me, the third guy from the right (behind the emperor and another officer, who looks to me to be bare-headed or wearing a very close-fitting helmet) appears to be holding the vexillum. The first signa appears to be behind him and coming directly out of his head— difficult to see how he could be holding it; the guy in line behind him, fourth in line, would then be holding that standard. The vexillum appears to me to be positioned for the third guy to be holding it. Then there's another standard, and another (fifth) figure... but this guy seems to be holding a spear in his right hand over his shoulder, which means he'd half to be holding the signa with his left hand only. You're correct that this last guy is also not wearing any kind of head covering, so he's probably not a standard bearer. So he's probably not supposed to be holding the second signa.

Maybe the second signa (which does appear a bit smaller than the first) is in the (unseen) rank behind...

Your correct that coin images require some compression and "visual shorthand" (i.e. nine legs for ten bodies), but in this period at least the art is elegant and usually makes sense.
T. Flavius Crispus / David S. Michaels
Centurio Pilus Prior,
Legio VI VPF
CA, USA

"Oderint dum probent."
Tiberius
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