Helmets

[DanM]

How many different types of helmets were used by greeks? And which city-state used each of them. I beleive athens used tracians, right? and spartans and corinthians used corinthians, right? But who used chalcidians?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Oh,look Dan.Most of the helmet types that you know were named by modern archaeologists.Only the corinthian or possibly one or two others were named like this by the ancient.This just means that they originated in that city or region.By the archaic and classical times,all hoplites from all ctates had the same equipment.The choise was up to the individual.
The types I remember(in classical times):
Corinthian,Chalkidian,Attic,Illyrian,Thracian,Phrygian,Pilos,Boeotian,Apulocorinthian.
In the late classical and through the Alexandrian to the Hellenistic times,almost all these helmets appeared with variations.Some of them were mixed to fit each individual.Each one of them could have been used by nearly any Greek city.The rich in each city some times decorated these helmets so heavily that they actually look like a different kind of helmet(adding horms,ears,feathers etc).Also,some of these types were more frequently used by specific types of troops.For example the "psiloi" prefered the pilos.This doesn't mean that the pilos was not use by hoplites,or that all psiloi wore pilos.The same with the attic and boeotean prefered by horsemen,etc


Khaire
Giannis

[hoplite07]

Did all of the hoplites' helmets have horsecrests? and the officers' helmets had them going from left to right, correct? Or ear to ear, and the others had them going from front to back.

Or was it: The officers were the only ones with a normal horsecrest(front to back) and the others had none, like in the movie, 300? The reason I ask is because I was discussing this with my Aviation teacher and he said that that is probably right, and he studied Greek hoplites in college, but Ive read in other books that it was the way I said before, and that was just a movie.

Im curious.

[Paullus]

Transverse crests are associated with Spartan officers, although I am no expert on Greek warfare, so I don't know if this school of thought has changed. Crests were every common with hoplites from every city and of every level of seniority within the phalanx.

As a general rule, 300 should not be taken in any form as an accurate portrayal of the ancient world Even films that are on the better side of the accuracy line, such as Alexander, are not perfect and should be viewed with at least a little bit of skeptical.

[Paullus Scipio]

Hoplite07 said

The officers were the only ones with a normal horsecrest(front to back) and the others had none

The whole question of Greek helmet crests is a bit of a conundrum. Originally, on pottery crests were almost universal, but on actual finds there were seldom if ever any crest fittings found - so which was it? Crests or no crests?
The answer, as you might expect is more complex and there are still gaps. As re-enactors will tell you, you need to store an erect horsehair crest flat or otherwise it gradually goes floppy - so crests need to be detachable.
In Attic pottery, down to the times of the Persian Wars, only mythical subjects were shown, and although often dressed in contemporary equipment(Hopla ), the Gods and Heroes were invariably shown crested, including the archaic raised crest.
From the time of the Persian Wars on, Attic pottery started to depict'current events' and we see Athenian soldiers fighting Persians. Many of these are shown with no crests. At around this time too theSiphnian Treaury was erected and it was decorated with a relief of a battle between Gods and Giants, dressed as contemporary Hoplites, and again many are crest-less.
The present view is that from around the time of the Persian Wars, the vast majority of Hoplites would probably not have had crests, but since a panoply was an individual thing, the more expensive might have chosen to have crests, or as you mentioned, crests might have been the preserve of officers - certainly strategoi (generals) are described as wearing triple crests ( see other thread). There are IIRC at least two crests depicted as sideways on Corinthian helmets, one the statuette presumed to be a Spartan because of his long hair ( see Paul Bardunias' avatar on this site) and another on a pot painting ( I think). By analogy with Roman Centurions crests, it is guessed that these 'sideways' crests represent officers, but since the whole front rank of a phalanx were officers, special recognition was hardly needed and it is more likely that these are just personal whim.
This is only a short version of what is a complex subject ! :wink:

[Dan Diffendale]

on actual finds there were seldom if ever any crest fittings found

This may be true for mainland Greece, but it is not true for helmets found in Italy, which very frequently show crest fittings.

Also, re: Giannis' list of helmet-types in common use, the Apulo-Corinthian seems to be fairly well restricted to central and southern Italy. There's one example supposedly from Athens, and one from Europe north of the Alps, but little else in the way of outliers.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Agreed.You could also point out that the Apulocorinthian is a hybrid and not one of the original types.It's the way you look at it...either as a mix of two different types or a pure evolution of the corinthian.
Khaire
Giannis

[hoplite14gr]

Usually the colonies had more money than the mainland so their military men could afford to be more splendid looking.

Kind regards

[FAVENTIANVS]

http://hetmanmilitaria.com/images/produkty/id50_1_b.jpg
http://hetmanmilitaria.com/images/produkty/id51_1_b.jpg

[Paullus Scipio]

This may be true for mainland Greece, but it is not true for helmets found in Italy, which very frequently show crest fittings.

Quite right, of course, Dan ! And the reason is not too hard to discern either. Italians tended to favour feather crests and falling horsehair crests, which don't need to be stored flat, so the fittings can be permanent.
Where there were erect horsehair crests, and also with falling horsehair crests, we get crestholders with pins to attach them. Greek horsehair crests seem to be tied to rings ( if the helmet form the 'Philip' tomb is anything to go by) - we don't see the 'pin and tube' type often found to support a central crest on Italian helmets. But a proportion, especially the simpler types, seem to be crestless, don't they Dan ?

[Zenodoros]

There are IIRC at least two crests depicted as sideways on Corinthian helmets, one the statuette presumed to be a Spartan because of his long hair ( see Paul Bardunias' avatar on this site) and another on a pot painting ( I think).

Here are the two paintings I know of that show transverse crests, Paul.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5773/scan0042bp6.jpg
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/2570/scan0050me7.jpg

Since the first one is identified as Menelaos, and the second one has what is presumed to be a bird of Skiritis (?) I'm guessing they're probably both meant to show somewhat idealized archaic Spartans. Although I've seen at least two depictions of transverse crested hoplites from elsewhere (this relief and I recall seeing an artwork of Athene with a horizontal crest, but I don't remember the medium).

edit: And of course there is the archaic Spartan tomb relief showing the Dokana and Apollon ray. Any others?

[hoplite14gr]

Here are the two paintings I know of that show transverse crests, Paul.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5773/scan0042bp6.jpg
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/2570/scan0050me7.jpg

Since the first one is identified as Menelaos, and the second one has what is presumed to be a bird of Skiritis (?) I'm guessing they're probably both meant to show somewhat idealized archaic Spartans.

Trojan war and Heroic Age characters are of royal status so they carry some times elaborate crests. The second ceramic possible commemorates the failure of the Spartans to oust the Peisistatides and the dying hoplite might well be Anchimolos - the Spartan polemarchos.
The other hoplite is probaly Skiritan perioikos
More details on trverse crests in the "red cloacks of the Spartans" thread.

Although I've seen at least two depictions of transverse crested hoplites from elsewhere (this relief and I recall seeing an artwork of Athene with a horizontal crest, but I don't remember the medium).

This comes from the "Treasure of the Sifnians" if memory serves me right.
Kind regards

[Paullus Scipio]

Here are the two paintings I know of that show transverse crests, Paul.

Many thanks for these, Barbara! I would be rather more cautious than our greek friends in identifying shield blazons - once they publish on this subject, matters may become clearer.
The relief is one of the giants from the Siphnyian Treasury, as Stefanos says. Oddly enough, when looking at this, I had tended to assume the crest was a conventional fore-and-aft one, withe tail blown across ( because the helmet is shown in profile), but I see that it is possible to interpret it as a sideways crest, with the geometry 'twisted' by the artist. All in all, hard to say.
Curious that most of these 'sideways' crests seem to be associated with Sparta (with the exception of the Athena one Barbara recalls) :?

[Zenodoros]

Many thanks for these, Barbara!

Bonnie.

Here's the Athene bust. More info here.

[Paullus Scipio]

A most interesting piece ! ...and not just because of the helmet - I hadn't seen this piece before, so thank you once again, Barbara ! D