Help with legatus legionis impression

[Carlton Bach]

And how are scenes and symbols from mythology specifically linked to one person?

It does appear that certain emperors developerd and used certain iconographic programmes for themselves and repeated them on their public art, actually. This isn't exactly my field, but given how archeology is still strongly influenced by art history, I had to do the basics back when. Frex, the Italian Tellus is very much an Augustan (and to a lesser extent later Julio-Claudian) thing. IIRC it was Claudius who used the river god Tiber a lot and Tiberius has scorpions. You can find details of this (IMO highly speculative) system in every good textbook on imperial art. It strill leaves a lot of mythology generic (everyone does thunderbolts, e.g.), but some combinations are indeed fairly specific.

[tlclark]

If the rolling eyes were meant about legates running around in a cuirass with decoration that appears to be specificaly linked to a certain emperor, then I agree

vale,

LOL.

Oh I know we are a very nuanced crowd here. I just want to make sure that those listening didn't misread you.

:wink:

[Hugh Fuller]

Just a thought, but I wonder if tribunes, especially, wore such heavily decorated musculata as are shown on sculptures. Yes, most of them could have afforded them but why expose such expensive items to the risks of combat. Would it not be more reasonable to think that they would have worn a cuirass that gave a more or less symbolic representation of the musculature and had a Medusa head on the chest for protection?

[Marcus Mummius]

Just a thought, but I wonder if tribunes, especially, wore such heavily decorated musculata as are shown on sculptures. Yes, most of them could have afforded them but why expose such expensive items to the risks of combat. Would it not be more reasonable to think that they would have worn a cuirass that gave a more or less symbolic representation of the musculature and had a Medusa head on the chest for protection?

How large was the chance that a tribune would see combat?

Also if I was a tribune with a lot of money and the risk that I'd see some real combat existed I would want to have the protection of as much mytological creatures and symbols as money could buy :wink:

Mind you, I'm not saying that a tribune should wear a heavily decorated cuirass, just expressing my doubts about your arguments why he wouldn't wear one :wink:

[Hugh Fuller]

Since the tribunis latiiclavius was a young man at the beginning of his political career, usually in his late teens or early twenties at the latest, and that it was a short-term appointment, I would retain my doubts about his buying an overly elaborate musculata unless he expected to be assigned to an area where he would be more on parade than in combat. I know that Romans LOVED "baubles, bangles, and bright shiny beads" but they also had a certain practicality about their combat equipment. If a young man was not making a profession of the military, and most of the young tribunes were not, then why spend a whole lot on such elaborate gear?

Edited to correct the type of tribune. Edited again to correct my correction.

[Marcus Mummius]

If a young man was not making a profession of the military, and most of the young tribunes were not, then why spend a whole lot on such elaborate gear?

To display it around the house, pointing out to everyone how he served in the army?

I agree that a tribune would better not outshine the legate, this is asking for problems.

The bottom line is:we just don't know :wink:

Vale,

[Hugh Fuller]

Jef, you have converted what were suggestions of possibilities or, at most, probabilities in my initial post to statements of fact by me. I did not make statements of fact but offered thoughts on the possibilities.

[Marcus Mummius]

Salve Hugh,

Oh, I consider everything that is said on this subject to be speculation. We just don't have enough evidence at the moment to make statements.

This doesn't mean that we can't discuss it. A board like this is a much better suited for this kind of speculative discussions than let's say academic literature IMO. Sadly academic literature is full with speculative discussions...

Why did you change the tribunus laticlavus to augusticlavus? I think the correct term is angusticlavus, by the way. Angusta is the latin for narrow, latuus means broad. A senatorial tribune has broad purple bands, an equestrian one has narrow bands.
The equestian tribunes were to my knowledge older men, and they served in the army a lot longer than a tribunus laticlavus.

Vale,

[Hugh Fuller]

I changed it to augusticlavius because I was talking about the junior tribunes and I discovered that I had used the incorrect term and wanted to correct it. I may make a mistake but I do not care to continue it.

As to the point of my latest post, I was only trying to say that I had not stated that a plainer form of cuirass was the only way to go. I had suggested my thinking on it and made a suggestion of what amounted to a possibility. It appeared that you had read it as a flat statement of fact and had taken offense at that. I wanted to make clear that I was not making a statement of fact, only one of possibilities.

[Marcus Mummius]

I see wink:

I know you just stated a possibility, and I gave an argument for it.

You mean by junior lower in rank? Because a tribunus laticlavus (a man in his early twenties) was generaly junior in age compared to a tribunus angusticlavus, but senior in rank.

The equestrian tribunes were generaly experienced officers who served in a legion for a long time, whereas a tribunus laticlavus (son of a senator) did a shorter term and turned to a political career after that.

At least that's what I remember being told

Vale,

[Hugh Fuller]

Damn, I had it right the first time!

Thanks.