Battle of Cunaxa Illustration

[Laran]

the illustration say Khazak...but I doubt it because they not look mongols. intead iranians or some else of Russian asia or caucasus...

Perhaps Cossack (Kazak)? They aren't Mongoloid but are of Kipchak (Cuman) descent.

Persian helmet ?

Kipchak

same warriors in the 1800's or 1900's

Nope. These are Khevsur warriors from Georgia. I believe it's around 1900.

Best regards.

[Artabanos]

That helmet is certainly not based on the Marathon helmet that is called Persian.

On the second look I realized that the "Khasakh" warrior illustration is most likely mainly based on the Soghdian warrior made by Angus McBride in one of the Osprey books. The mail under the coat style is nearly identical.

The style of the helmet is also similar expect that the Iranic variant is "buegelgelm" the two piece spangenhelm. But the technology of the buegel-/spangenhelm should have been widely adopted by the Altaic people of that time.

[Laran]

Here's that relief of a Persian heavy cavalryman which was supposed to be lost, for some reason. As you can see, it isn't.

I photographed it in Konya archaelogical museum as well as also 'lost' Lykian warrior stele which can be seen here http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 0&start=40

[MeinPanzer]

Why do you think that is a cavalryman, Laran?

[Laran]

Why do you think that is a cavalryman, Laran?

That's what is said in Nick Sekunda's book. Fairly speaking, I would like to know why as well. And why he is considered Persian.

[bachmat66]

a quotation from Kyropaidia by Duncan Head:

A sleeves overcoated called the Kandys was sometimes worn with the "Median" dress. It is usually seen draped over the shoulders like a cloack, with the sleeves hanging empty.
Xenophon, in Kyropaidia, says that Persian horsemen put their hands in the sleeves of the kandys when inspected by the King. (Some writers suggest that the word kandys meant the "Persian" robe, but Xenophon clearly describes it being worn with the "Median" tunic; for example, he describes Cyrus the Younger's retinue discarding the kandys, leaving them wearing tunics & embroidered trousers.)

isn't the 'Kandys' a Greek language 'corruption' of a 'Kantuš'/'cantus' or the Median cloak?

Coincidentally the Persian pronunciacion and this garment's function are almost exactly like the Polish nobleman/warrior 16-17th cenutry AD 'kontusz' overcoat - it was transformed during the 18th century into a lighter garment etc and became the 19th century Polish national costume of sorts..
Dario

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Dariusz,

I've sent you a PM concerning your signature.

[gie]

Does anyone knows from which books the next 3 plates come?
They show persian and saka cataphracts from some russian book.s







Does anyone know the books? Can someone help me find the source of the plates?
Anyone knows any russian book with persian or saka warriors?

[Johnny Shumate]

Great illustrations!
Can you show all of the top illustration? The bottom Saka warrior is cut off......
Johnny

[gie]

Great illustrations!
Can you show all of the top illustration? The bottom Saka warrior is cut off......
Johnny

This is all i have (not all the plate).

The top cavalrymen it is a saka.
The cavalrymen you are talking about is not a saka but a persian or bactrian.
You can also look on the bottom picture to see the rest of that warrior looks. It is the same as he left cavalrymen from the next:

[Artabanos]

@gie

Nice drawings!

The artist clearly got some of his inspiration in archaeological funds which were made in the Sogdiana/Central Asia by the Soviet Union.

The findings were not clearly dated but it seems to have been a Parthian-Scythian engagement in the 2th century BC. The neck guard of #1 in the first picture is the typical Scytho-Iranic one, used already by the troops of the Achaemenids and earlier. The armour and equipment of the troops of the early Parthian empire should have been still very similar to that of the Achaemenids.


The helmet of that heavy armoured Cataphracts is the "Persian" marathon helmet which should have been of Mesopotamian auxiliary’s.

[MeinPanzer]

Does anyone knows from which books the next 3 plates come?
They show persian and saka cataphracts from some russian book.s

Does anyone know the books? Can someone help me find the source of the plates?
Anyone knows any russian book with persian or saka warriors?

The first and third are definitely from M.V. Gorelik, and I think the third is as well, but I'm not sure.

Based on Gorelik's other stuff, I can try to identify each figure.

The first plate's Fig. 1 is a heavy Persian infantryman. The cuirass and helmet are based on interpretations of Persian seals showing heavy cavalrymen and infantrymen. The rest of his appearance is hypothetical reconstruction. His shield is taken from a Persian on the Oxford Brygos cup, but the use of such a shield by Persian heavy infantrymen is hypothetical. Fig. 2 is a late Persian cavalryman is based off of several sources. His helmet is based on an example found in Thebes in Egypt, the gorget is based on the Derveni gorget, and the cuirass itself is just hypothetical, as is the fact that he shows one arm covered with cheir and the other with scale-covered pteruges. Gorelik illustrates the exact same hypothetical reconstruction of body armour (gorget, cuirass, and cheir) in "Oruzie Drevnego Vostoka" and states that it is based on Xenophon's descriptions, but gives no reason for reconstructing only one cheir-covered arm. The parameridia are based on the examples discussed in this thread. Fig. 3 is an early Saka noble cavalryman. His helmet is based on an example from Samarkand, his shield is based on the Pazyryk examples, and his greaves are based on those found in a Pazyryk burial. The cuirass is just a "generic" scaled cuirass, the horse furniture is based on Pazyryk finds, and everything else is hypothetical.

The third plate has a mix of figures. Fig. 1 is, again, a heavy Persian cavalryman, and the helmet is the same as Plate 1's Fig. 2, while the armour is, again, hypothetical, as is the peytral and parameridia of the man's mount. Fig. 2 is, I think, a late Persian cavalryman, based on a figure from the Issus mosaic but reconstructed with a hypothetical shield. Fig. 3 is just a Persian light cavalryman, and all the details are, I'm fairly sure, hypothetical. Fig. 4 is, I think, another late Persian cavalryman, but I can't identify the sources he used for them. Fig. 5 is based on a figure from a Southern Italian vase which Gorelik has I think quite wrongly reconstructed as wearing a full-body suit of scale armour. Rather the figure wears the regular "jumpsuit" that Persian troops are depicted wearing on Greek vases only with a pattern that resembles scaled armour. The figure carries two spears and a sword, but Gorelik has reconstructed him here with a hypothetical shield. It should also be noted that this figure wears quite fantastical headgear and is most likely a fantasy representation of an Asian. Fig. 6 is, I think, a Bactrian, and is fairly straightforward. Fig. 7 is a Saka cataphract, and is based on a few sources. The helmet is the same one given to Plate 1's Fig. 3. The armour is based on several sources showing heavy Saka cataphracts and in particular the armoured plates found in Chirik-Rabat.The horse armour is based on the terracotta fragment from Chumbuz-Tepe.

[MeinPanzer]

The helmet of that heavy armoured Cataphracts is the "Persian" marathon helmet which should have been of Mesopotamian auxiliary’s.

It's actually the Achaemenid helmet found in Thebes, which is pointier that the Marathon example and which has holes in place for the method of attachment Gorelik has illustrated there.

[gie]

some related plates can be found about persian and macedonians

[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/001.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/002.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/003.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/004.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/005.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/006.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/007.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/008.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/009.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/010.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/011.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/012.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/013.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/014.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/015.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/016.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/017.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/018.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/019.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/020.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/021.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/022.jpg[/url]
[url:28gsln05]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/023.jpg[/url]

[MeinPanzer]

some related plates can be found about persian and macedonians

[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/001.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/002.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/003.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/004.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/005.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/006.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/007.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/008.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/009.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/010.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/011.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/012.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/013.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/014.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/015.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/016.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/017.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/018.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/019.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/020.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/021.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/022.jpg[/url]
[url:3rid2vrp]http://gorod.crimea.edu/librari/greki/023.jpg[/url]

I'm fairly sure that these are from some Russian publication that just copied a number of Gorelik reconstructions, only a number of them look very inaccurate and poorly reconstructed (for instance, the Macedonian and Thracian cavalrymen reconstructed with crescent peltae).