2nd cent AD gravestone - looking for help

[Martin Moser]

Hi all,

could anyone please help with this gravestone:



I got the picture from

Giebel, Marion. Reisen in der Antike. Duesseldorf 2000. p210.

It says that it is in the Uffizi in Florence, Italy. I am looking for more detailed pictures or publications dealing with this gravestone as I am interested in a better view of a) the hat, b) the bag, and c) the shoes worn by the traveller.

Thanks for reading!

[Jona Lendering]

Dear Martin,

I'm afraid I cannot help you, and in fact make matters more difficult. I've asked a friend who is well-acquainted with the Uffizi (Marlous, the girlfriend of my friend Marco, whom you've met in Augsburg), and she is pretty convinced that this relief is not in the present collection. It may have been brought to another place.

On the other hand, Marion Giebel says that the photo was made by a Gunter Giebel, who will probably be a relative or so, which suggests that it was in the Uffizi at a fairly recent moment.

I know this doesn't really help...

Jona

[Martin Moser]

Dear Jona,

many thanks for your answer!

I'm afraid I cannot help you, and in fact make matters more difficult. I've asked a friend who is well-acquainted with the Uffizi (Marlous, the girlfriend of my friend Marco, whom you've met in Augsburg), and she is pretty convinced that this relief is not in the present collection. It may have been brought to another place.

Hm, too bad, but to be honest, this is almost more than I expected to find out. It is an interesting relief in terms because of the rare items (hat, bag) shown there, and that sparked my interest of course. Well maybe something does still come up ...

On the other hand, Marion Giebel says that the photo was made by a Gunter Giebel, who will probably be a relative or so

Yes, my gues was that it might be her husband. I think I'll try to find Marion Giebel's contact address, maybe she knows more.

Many thanks again!

[Jona Lendering]

Somehow there's a little voice in me that says "It's a Renaissance work of art"... The entire composition feels more like those bystanders who are watching the Crucifixion, or the Holy Family arriving in Betlehem, or some other scene typical of Late Medieval or Early Renaissance triptych or fresco. The bag and hat make the guy look as if he has just left a painting by Breughel.

What if the statue had an explanatory note saying that it was made "nel duecento"? That means 'in the thirteenth century'; and it can easily lead to a mistranslation "in the second century". The idea that life is like a road ("Ruhe nach den Mühen des Lebens") at least has plausible parallels in that age, think only of Dante'ss "cammin di nostra vita".

What worries me also are the leaves of grass in front of the photo. I would not be surprised if it were stored away somewhere on a small courtyard.

[Martin Moser]

Somehow there's a little voice in me that says "It's a Renaissance work of art"... The entire composition feels more like those bystanders who are watching the Crucifixion, or the Holy Family arriving in Betlehem, or some other scene typical of Late Medieval or Early Renaissance triptych or fresco. The bag and hat make the guy look as if he has just left a painting by Breughel.

Hm, an intersting thought and you might have a point there, although medieval reliefs/statues normally are not that lifelike in terms of proportions and all. I would grant you Renaissance though ;-) )

What if the statue had an explanatory note saying that it was made "nel duecento"? That means 'in the thirteenth century'; and it can easily lead to a mistranslation "in the second century".

Then it would be complete fake I'd say - AFAIK 13th century statues are a long way from anything as lifelike (as I said above). It would have to be 2+ centuries later then I'd guess.

OTOH, the (cloth?) bag does have a parallel, one of the woman servants in a scene in the Piazza Armerina mosaics carries a similar bag. I was hoping for additional detail from this relief.

Makes me ever more curious about this thing ... :-P P

[gaiusseptimiuslucianus]

Martin,

I have to agree with Jona, that I think that relief looks like a Renaissance piece. There's just something about the style that looks more like 1550 than 150. The bag looks rather like the type of bag we call a snap sack in 16th-17th century reenacting. It is a tubular bag, open at both ends, with a strap that is worn across the body like in this relief. In it the soldier might carry an extra shirt, hose, any personal effect and a day or two's dry rations.

Hope this is a help,

Lucianus

[Jona Lendering]

Then it would be complete fake I'd say - AFAIK 13th century statues are a long way from anything as lifelike.

That was my initial though too, but then I realized that Arnolfo di Cambio was one of the leading sculptors of that age: look at this. That's pretty life-like, I'd say... However, I agree that -if we look for a Renaissance candidate- Donatello or another more recent artist is more likely. Exit my "duecento"-hypothesis.

I discussed it with Marlous, who had another argument for a more recent date: this statue is perfectly preserved. Even the nose is undamaged. That's pretty rare for an ancient relief and suggests Renaissance art. I add that the beard and hair of our tired traveller do not resemble hair fashion of the second century, which has finer strands, locks, curls:


I would not be surprised if it turns out that this photo is from a statue in a little-known museum near the Uffizi (e.g., the Museo dell' Opera di Santa Maria del Fiore), and that the Giebels wrote down something wrong.

[Jona Lendering]

And some more examples of the size of 2nd century hair styles:


And of course good old Marcus Aurelius, on a photo by our own Andreas.

Meanwhile, I like this discussion. We take those datings of objects so much for granted, and there is so much room for doubt.

[Tarbicus]

Arnolfo di Cambio was one of the leading sculptors of that age: look at this. That's pretty life-like, I'd say...

hate to disagree Jona, but they're not a patch on the relief Martin posted. Or rather, they're still fairly typical of their time. The piece Martin posted reminds of some other Roman sculpture; if you take away the more grandiose or 'made for posterity' subjects behind a couple of the ones below (Demosthenes and Mars, for example) they're still more akin to a character study than propaganda and the like. Although it may well be Renaissance due to its condition, it wouldn't surprise me if it was Roman.

http://img.search.com/thumb/6/6d/Demost ... statue.jpg
http://www.metmuseum.org/special/YearOne/images/3.L.jpg
http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/data/13030 ... _00082.jpg
http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/stobi/eS ... Woman6.jpg
http://www.mainlesson.com/books/scales/ ... age055.gif
http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=33631&rendTypeId=4
http://www.lycianturkey.com/images/fe-r ... tue-4a.jpg
http://www.thecityreview.com/antif984.gif
http://www.davidrumsey.com/amico/amico1 ... 04008.html
http://www.clas.canterbury.ac.nz/nzact/ ... atric1.jpg
http://johnthomson.org/gallery/wm2.php? ... ode=normal
http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~cmw/1995/Pergamon1b.jpg