Posts: 30
Threads: 4
Joined: Feb 2007
Reputation:
0
The hand on the standard what is the meaning of that
i hear 3 versions,
1. it say your place is here come to me
2. remember the oath you took for the legion and the emperor
3. we come in peace ( sorry i think that is a joke because almost 10.000 men fully armed en saying i come in peace)
Are there other versions? please let me know.
[size=150:1eo9aiz4]errare hvmanvm est[/size]
ALEXANDER TIBERIVS MAXIMVS
Gerard Schotgerrits
CORBVLO
Posts: 8,090
Threads: 505
Joined: Jan 2005
Reputation:
0
Quote:2. remember the oath you took for the legion and the emperor
It was used in the Republican period, wasn't it? So no oaths to an Emperor IMHO.
maniple definition:
http://dict.die.net/maniple/
Maniple \\Man"i*ple\\, n. [L. manipulus, maniplus, a handful, a
certain number of soldiers; manus hand + root of plere to
fill, plenus full: cf. F. maniple. See Manual, and Full,
a.]
1. A handful. [R.] --B. Jonson.
2. A division of the Roman army numbering sixty men exclusive
of officers, any small body of soldiers; a company.
--Milton.
The hand could have been originally to signify the "handful", or maniple?
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
Posts: 7,668
Threads: 117
Joined: Apr 2005
Reputation:
0
Quote:The hand could have been originally to signify the "handful", or maniple?
Yes, I think so, or it might signify that the soldiers raised their hands to take the oath, and be a talisman to that effect. I'm with you on #2 being the right answer.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)
Saepe veritas est dura.
Posts: 3,817
Threads: 147
Joined: Dec 2001
Reputation:
2
The open palm/hand also means "victory", so it could also be a type of "esprit de corps" type of adornment showing off the Roman military machine and it's theoretical invincibility.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité
Legion: TBD
Posts: 4,483
Threads: 634
Joined: Aug 2005
Reputation:
0
I seem to remember having read somewhere that cohorts had no standards; perhaps the open hand sign was the standard of a manipel?
Jona Lendering
Relevance is the enemy of history
My website
Posts: 2,253
Threads: 31
Joined: Jan 2001
Reputation:
0
Right, each *century* had a signum, the cohort did not have its own standard. Some signa had the hand at the top, others had a spearhead, and I don't think we can tell why there was a difference.
The hand may have indicated the Roman concept of manus or authority. Or it's possible that even the Romans didn't know exactly what it meant, the origins being lost in the depths of time and tradition.
Valete,
Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
Posts: 13,279
Threads: 102
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
3
Could have been a sign of Romes beneviolence to the less developed people of the world, as in 'Give me Five, barbarian, we come to help you!' :twisted:
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Posts: 416
Threads: 33
Joined: Mar 2007
Reputation:
0
Ave,
I recall reading that there was an oath under the standard but not necessarily to the Emperor specifically but to your comrades in arms first; your fellow legionary, or General, and Rome etc. I recall an example such as the modern “unit, Core, God, Countryâ€
Vale!
Antonivs Marivs Congianocvs
aka_ANTH0NY_C0NGIAN0
My ancient coin collection:
[url:3lgwsbe7]http://www.congiano.com/MyCoins/index.htm[/url]
Posts: 345
Threads: 48
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation:
0
It isn't sure each century has a signum, contrary to Polybius affirmation Varro tells "Manipulus exercitus minima manus quae unum sequitur signum" (the maniple is the little army unit that follow a standard", and the socii cohorts have a cohortal vexillum.
It is possible Polybius when tells that each centurion choice the standard bearer, makes confusion and in reality only the priores choice him.
"Each historical fact needs to be considered, insofar as possible, no with hindsight and following abstract universal principles, but in the context of own proper age and environment" Aldo A. Settia
a.k.a Davide Dall\'Angelo
SISMA- Società Italiana per gli Studi Militari Antichi
Posts: 13,279
Threads: 102
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
3
Why would he be confused about something like that? It would be pretty obvious to someone who was around the military for any length of time who was carrying a signum and who wasn't! He was an associate of Scipio wasn't he?
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Posts: 345
Threads: 48
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation:
0
The link with Scipio isn't a assurance (Scipio isn't a military professionist and the war take only part of his live) ; we haven't data about the actual military preparation and knowledge about the roman military practices of Polibyus (view the roman army in action in Africa and Spain isn't sufficient to tellthat he understands the details and the organisation, or he searchs to understand they ); Rawson think he used a military manual for his roman army descriptions.
And Varro isn't a source to exclude without a more tangible contrary evidence (He have a extensive knowledge and he commanded roman troops in Spain, and follows Pompeus against Sertorius).
"Each historical fact needs to be considered, insofar as possible, no with hindsight and following abstract universal principles, but in the context of own proper age and environment" Aldo A. Settia
a.k.a Davide Dall\'Angelo
SISMA- Società Italiana per gli Studi Militari Antichi
Posts: 13,279
Threads: 102
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
3
Polibius was not reliable then.......ok if you say so!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Posts: 345
Threads: 48
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation:
0
Like other sources he hasn't to be taken without criticism or verifications, or comparison with other sources.
"Each historical fact needs to be considered, insofar as possible, no with hindsight and following abstract universal principles, but in the context of own proper age and environment" Aldo A. Settia
a.k.a Davide Dall\'Angelo
SISMA- Società Italiana per gli Studi Militari Antichi
Posts: 13,279
Threads: 102
Joined: May 2006
Reputation:
3
True, trust but verify.... but then I face the same quandary. Not being conversant or literate in Latin or ancient Greek, I must go by what modern sources say, and this just opens a new can of worms, as in, why trust someone who lived 2000 years after the fact, when people doubt the veracity of those who were contemporary with the events they describe! :? Hell, I have to question people contemporary with my self...as I know that people often come out with a story which is totally unrelated to the events that took place, to which both I and they were witness and participant......
So, if I judge everyone by this standard of critique, no one is to be trusted but my own interpretation of events......and i KNOW I make mistakes, as do others I am surrounded by......so where do we go from there........we come to a standstill, frozen in indecision and indecisiveness,
rooted in a whirlwind of conflicting ideas and suppositions, wracked with doubt and mistrust.......a statue in time and thought.......
Anyway, I like Polibius...he was Greek!
Visne partem mei capere? Comminus agamus! * Me semper rogo, Quid faceret Iulius Caesar? * Confidence is a good thing! Overconfidence is too much of a good thing.
[b]Legio XIIII GMV. (Q. Magivs)RMRS Remember Atuatuca! Vengence will be ours!
Titus Flavius Germanus
Batavian Coh I
Byron Angel
Posts: 6,734
Threads: 489
Joined: Mar 2001
Reputation:
27
Welcome to the study of history, Byron. :wink:
|
