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EUREKA - Roman army troops
Quote:Matthew wrote:
The Roman legion WAS a very efficient and highly organized killing machine! If you expect us to believe that the Romans simply dressed all these guys up in metal clothes and had them march about with oversized cutlery to fulfill some cosmological imperative…you're going to have to come up with REALLY good proof.

Sorry about the delay in posting, but as the ancients say, I've been hard pressed. Firstly I am not asking anyone to believe anything. I am sharing what my research has revealed and that is the Roman military organisation is replicating their cosmos system, based on revolutions of planets and their degrees, in relation to moving around the Earth, which they believed remained motionless. I am leaving it for the book to prove what I am outlining. My posting are nothing more than updates of my progress. When I gave Phil Sidnell my email address I received many responses from people on this forum so I decided to make one posting so as to avoid making many individual posts. And I felt obligated to reply. To me, internet forums are light hearted discussions, and for me to post proof will require posting the whole book. If I did so what point in publishing? I sometimes get excited about what I am finding, and share it as an overview. Seriously, I am not asking anyone to believe anything; or even buy the book. I am just stating my latest finds, interlaced I understand with small and very general (but original) snippets of evidence.

Quote:Matthew wrote:
You can tie troop numbers or unit sizes to all sorts of other things, but it does NOT mean that those troop numbers were fixed BECAUSE of those other things UNLESS an ancient author tells us so.

I refer to Geminos’ Introduction to the Phenomena. The whole book is explosive, especially the section “Concerning the Zones on Earth,” Chapter XV 1-4, followed by Chapter XVI 6-8, Dimensions of the Terrestrial Zones.” Following this is Chapter XVI 10-12, “Division of the Celestial Sphere.” The whole Roman tribal system is based on the information in these chapters given by Geminos. However, if the reader has no grasp of ancient mathematical methodology and astronomy, then the information remains meaningless. You have the ingredients, now you have to find out how the Romans used it. My research time and again kept showing that the Romans increased the tribes after 241 BC by 84000 men (2400 men per tribe). However, until I read Geminos I had no idea why this number, then found it relates to the Earth’s diameter of 84,000 stades, which coincidently is close to Dionysius’ figure of 84,700 men for the census of Servius Tullius. But I wouldn’t read too much into that. Every time the zodiac covered this distance, the tribes increase, but it takes centuries to happen. One modern astronomer predicated the ancients were allowing 30 degrees of movement for the upper heaven every 2000 years. In regard to Roman mathematical ratios, information is also contained in Ptolemy’s works:

“The explanation of opposition is immediately obvious, because it causes the two signs to meet on one straight line. But if we take the two fractions and the two super-particulars 3/2 and 4/3 most important in music, and if the fractions one half and one third be applied to opposition, composed of two right angles, the half makes the quartile and the third the sextiles and trine (1/2 of 180 = 90 quarile and 1/3 of 180 = 60 sextile. Of the super-particulars, if the sesquialter and the sesquitertian be applied to the quartiels interval of one right angle, which lies between them, the sesquialter makes the ratio of the quartile to the sextiles and the sesquitertian that of the trine to quartile (3/2 = 90/60 and 4/3 = 120/90.”

Ptolemy’s 120/90 ratio is found in the two systems relating to the Earth being divided into three parts of 120 degrees, and the second system of dividing the Earth into four parts of 90 degrees. A century of 100 men is broken into two parts 60 men plus 40 men, which produces the ratio 3/2. What we basically have is two mathematical systems in play.

Quote:Matthew wrote:
Other modern writers have compared legions to later historical and modern military units, and have found that the sizes of legions, cohorts, and centuries are very practical and workable for administration and for command and control in combat.

Now according to the ancient astronomers, the zodiac is made up of 12 signs each of 30 degrees, therefore, giving a zodiac circle of 360 degrees. My research shows a cohort of 480 men simply represents 480 degrees and when divided by 30 degrees per zodiac sign = 16 zodiac signs. This means 480 degrees represents one and a third zodiac cycles (4 parts Earth =360 degrees, one part diameter = 120 degrees). When the 480 man cohort is introduced is given by Virgil (Eclogue 4: The Golden Age) as occurring during the consulship of Pollio in 40 BC. My research positions 480 degrees as relating to the position of Saturn, which is exactly what Virgil claims, the return of Saturn during the reign of Augustus. During this time, Virgil makes mention of Lucina which is the goddess of birth. I’ve learnt that when Lucina is mentioned in the primary sources it is symbolic of a reform being undertaken, and Virgil is right on the money. Other interesting aspects of the zodiac is each 30 degree sector is subdivided into 10 degree sectors called decani, and each decanus is considered master of his own 10 degree sector. Each 10 degree sector was in turn subdivided into smaller sectors ruled by subdecani. A system of smaller subdivisions covering fractions of a degree was called myriogenesis, which can number up to 216,000. There is also mentioned in passing, of the numeri system, but I cannot find anything more on it.

Quote:Matthew wrote:
Organizing a military unit in strict accordance with astronomical observation seems like an invitation to disaster!

How is this so? Can you elaborate? The Roman system is not based on observation on a weekly or monthly basis; it is permanently modelled on the cosmos system. Although the ancients calculate the upper heavens as moving, it is a theoretical system, and does not correspond to the observation of the planets or fixed stars from Earth. The mathematical system informs the Romans which part of the upper heavens rules them and for how long, similar in concept to Cassius Dio’s description of the gods governing the day. After a number of solar years that correspond with the circumference and diameter of the Earth, coupled divisible by the 60 parts of the Meridian circle, the Romans know which god now rules over them, and because the maths related to a new god greater in degrees than the last one, they increase the tribes in accordance. In this manner, a Roman priest knows what the size of the tribes will be centuries in advance. The system is not concerned with the lunar calendar, with differing days for each month, but the system is aligned with the solar calendar. However, regardless of whether they get the solar year wrong and allow 390 days, 255 days, or 365 days a year, it is the number of years the Roman believe it to be that tells them what position within the universe they are at. What I am saying is I am not randomly picking out degrees in the cosmos system to make the system work, far from it, and it remains faithful to Geminos, Cleomedes, Hipparchos, Pliny and many many others.

There’s a reference in the Suida, given in Greek, of which I don’t have the correct font, that the Athenians organised the tribes of Solon on the months, four seasons and year. Plato recommends mathematical astronomy for his ideal state. Plato even allocates numbers to the planets (1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9 and 27).

And how do you shrug off Boethius? In his De Institutione Arithmetica, Boethius, compares the arithmetical proportion to the state, which is ruled by a few (oligarchy) because “the greater ratio is with the smaller numbers.” Boethius writes that “a state of the very best is a musical proportion.” Boethius lists five classes of inequality; the first class is called “multiple;” the second class the superparticular ratio, consisting of either the “sesquialter” or the “sesquitertian” ratio. The third class contains two parts the “superbipartient” and the “supertripartient” ratio. The fourth class contains the “duple-sesquialter” or “duple-sesquitertian” ratio, the fifth class is termed the “multiple superpartient” and contains the “duple-superbipartient” and the “triple-superbipartient” ratios.

Coincidently, the Servian constitution has five classes, and Boethius’ reference to a state being ruled by a few because the greater ratio is with the smaller number, somehow coincidently relates to the explanation given by Dionysius and Livy that in the voting system on the century assembly, the greater ratio of Class I, being smaller in number dominate the others, being greater in number (but not in the voting ratio). Maybe this is again, just mathematical coincidence. How do we know? Has anyone explored the possibility?

Quote:Matthew wrote:
Obviously the Romans were very mindful of astronomy and astrology, and took things like omens very seriously indeed. But without more proof, your conclusions are just striking us as a HUGE leap in logic.

I’ll take this statement to reiterate my position. I am only posting to give updates on my progress and where the road has taken me. I am sorry people are frustrated I cannot supply more information, but do to so would require posting the whole book, not one part, due to it being one continuous system.

Quote:Matthew wrote:
So, IS there an ancient source that says something to the effect of, "Oh, no, we CAN'T have more than 60 centuries in a legion, because of the orbit of Venus!" Even a hint of such thinking? If not, you're way out on a limb.

First, I did not say the orbit of Venus restricted the number of centuries to 60. I stated the five known planets visible to the naked eye multiplied by the 12 signs of the zodiac produce the number 60. This is common knowledge in astronomic circles. Also it is common knowledge the Romans, like the Babylonians, used the sexagesimal place value system, (based on five planets and the zodiac), not the decimal; that is the numbers are based on sixes, not tens. The figure of 60 is ten parts of 6, not six parts of ten. The modern system of counting hours, minutes and seconds is derived from it. Everything is broken into 60 parts, so one part is one sixtieth, and five parts, five sixtieth. Polybius’ legion of 4200 men is made up of 70 parts (70 sixtieths), and Livy’s 5400 man legion at Magnesia is made up of 90 parts. If you go up the next level, to one part being 600 men, Polybius’ legion is 7 parts and Livy’s legion, 9 parts. The Roman maths when reaching 10, as they say, is to start again, referred to them as the cycle. So the maximum is 6000 (10 parts of 600 men, or 100 parts of 60).

Ancient astronomers like Geminos, Eratosthenes, Pliny and others give the circumference of the Earth at 252,000 stades. Therefore, as Geminos is using the sexagesimal system, he writes the Earth contains 60 parts each of 4200 stades. The Romans allocate 600 stades to a degree, so 4200 stades = 7 degrees, and Livy’s legion of 5400 men equates to 9 degrees, and 6000 stades to 10 degrees. The Earth (252,000 stades = 420 degrees), so Polybius legion of 7 degrees represents one sixtieth (420 divided by 7 degrees). This is the system behind the legion and it is driven by their cosmos system. Geminos makes a reference to Polybius having written a book “On the regions about the Equator” which define the Earth being divided into six zones. The Earth’s circumference of 252,000 stades when divided into Polybius’ six zones allocates each zone 42,000 stades, with a zone made up of 10 parts of 4200 stades (amounting to 60 parts).

Plutarch Life of Sulla 7: “For according to them (Tuscans) there are eight ages in all, differing from one another in the lives and customs of men, and to each of these God has appointed a definite number of times and seasons, which is completed by the circuit of a great year.” Now according to some like Censorinus, a great year equates to 60 years.

Quote:Matthew wrote:
And there are some pretty sharp saws in this crowd.

But have modern writers’ explored ancient mathematics, which is intertwined with geometry and astronomy? To answer this question, simply look up the bibliographies of every book you have on the Roman legion. If the author hasn’t, then this is akin to buying a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle, and throwing out two thirds of the pieces. This methodology will always result in never seeing the complete picture, therefore no consensus of opinion, and this has been going on for hundreds of years.

Question: if the Roman system does not reflect their cosmos system, then why do the Romans then assigned gods to hours of the day as described by Cassius Dio (History of Rome, XXXVII, 19.1-3):

"If you begin at the first hour to count the hours of the day and of the night, assigning the first to Saturn, the next to the great god Jupiter, the third to Mars, the fourth to the Sun, the fifth to Venus, the sixth to Mercury, and the seventh to the Moon, according to the order of cycles which the Egyptians observe, and if you repeat the process, covering thus the whole twenty-four hours, you will find that the first hour of the following day comes to the Sun. And if you carry on the operation throughout the next twenty-four hours in the same manner as with the others, you will dedicate the first hour of the third day to the Moon, and if you proceed similarly throughout the rest, each day will receive its appropriate god. This, then, is the tradition."

If the ancients define their systems as a macro micro system, then if the Romans are basing hours to a god, then why not years and decades, a point made by a fragment believed written by Trismegistus:

“The dominion of the planets over the ages of man is as follows: the Moon governs the first age, which consists of 4 years. Mercury governs the second, which consists of 10 years. Venus the third, and this extends to 8 years. The Sun the fourth, and this age consists of 19 years. Mars the fifth, and this consists of 15 years Jupiter, the sixth, consists of 12 years: and Saturn governs the seventh age, and this extends to the remaining years of human life.”

The reference to Mars consisting of 15 years, coincidently when multiplied by the zodiac circle of 360 degrees equals 5400. Now if you want to tie this in with Livy’s legion of 5400 men, you first need to make it precisely fit (no fudging) the mathematical system of the cosmos. Proclus Commentary on the First Alcibiades of Plato also mentions the same ruling system of gods over a man’s lifespan:

“For our age (says he) partakes in an eminent degree of the lunar energies, as we then live according to a nutritive and physical power. But our second age participates of Mercurial prerogatives, because we then apply ourselves to letters, music and wrestling. The third age is governed by Venus, because then we begin to produce seed, and the generative powers of nature are put in motion. The fourth age is Solar, for then our youth is in its vigour and full of perfection, subsisting as a medium between generation and decay; for such is the order which vigour is allocated. But the fifth age is governed by Mars, in which we principally aspire after power and superiority over others. The sixth age is governed by Jupiter, for this we give ourselves up to prudence, and pursue an active and political life. And the seventh age is Saturnian, in which it is natural to separate ourselves from generation, and transfer ourselves to an incorporeal life.”

Now for those who didn’t like my comment Venus corresponds with the time frame of the Servian legion, Venus again corresponds from the above to eight years. Venus is given by the ancients as eight degrees, and has five rising and five setting, and when multiplied by 8 produces 40. Ovid’s (Fasti 1 39) gives the following: “The month of Mars was first, that of Venus second: she was his line’s princeps.” The ancient astronomers assign numbers to the planets and also provide their sesquitertian or sesquialter ratios, so one can distinguish what number exceeds which by a monad, triad, tetrad or dyad, and so on. Interestingly, the ancients call the tetrad, the shield bearer of the hebdomad. The ancient cosmos is a sexagesimal place value system; the Roman legion is a sexagesimal place value system. There’s your first link. The Romans have to base their system on something, so why not the cosmos. The cosmos represent divinity and as Aristotle states the system is perfect without disorder. Geminos writes “the motion of the stars is simple, uniform and orderly.” The Romans organised their military camps so every man knew his place, thereby eliminating disorder. Are we to accept the Romans only did this in their military camps and the rest of their systems, be it social or military, allowed for degrees of disorder? Had my research led me to undeniable evidence the Romans based their systems on the number of bricks in a temple, then that would be my conclusion. However, replicating their cosmos system is so logical and the Romans are not the only ones. I recently came across a paper by archaeologist connecting Mayan city planning being based on their cosmos. The Aztecs even have a war calendar. And talking of calendar, in 300 BC, the consuls, for the first time made the calendar available to the public. For the campaign of 299 BC, for the first time Livy numbers the legions. Why this happened is a lifting of censorship as the consular legions and what they represent relate to the cosmos system, and was sacred priestly science. The science of the heavenly spheres consists of four things; centre, diameter, circumference and area (ie surface). The properties of the four legions represent sameness in the monad, the difference in the dyad, the colures in the triad, and solidarity in the tetrad. Geminos defines the colures as the circles passing through the poles and is divided into four equal parts. Accompanying this, there are four types of planetary movements, progression, retrogression and two modes of being stationary, primary and secondary. These determine whether you multiply or add the data.
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Quote:My research time and again kept showing that the Romans increased the tribes after 241 BC by 84000 men (2400 men per tribe).
What are the references for this?

Quote:Every time the zodiac covered this distance, the tribes increase, but it takes centuries to happen.
How does this actually occur?

Quote:One modern astronomer predicated the ancients were allowing 30 degrees of movement for the upper heaven every 2000 years. In regard to Roman mathematical ratios, information is also contained in Ptolemy’s works:

“The explanation of opposition is immediately obvious, because it causes the two signs to meet on one straight line. But if we take the two fractions and the two super-particulars 3/2 and 4/3 most important in music, and if the fractions one half and one third be applied to opposition, composed of two right angles, the half makes the quartile and the third the sextiles and trine (1/2 of 180 = 90 quarile and 1/3 of 180 = 60 sextile. Of the super-particulars, if the sesquialter and the sesquitertian be applied to the quartiels interval of one right angle, which lies between them, the sesquialter makes the ratio of the quartile to the sextiles and the sesquitertian that of the trine to quartile (3/2 = 90/60 and 4/3 = 120/90.”

Ptolemy’s 120/90 ratio is found in the two systems relating to the Earth being divided into three parts of 120 degrees, and the second system of dividing the Earth into four parts of 90 degrees. A century of 100 men is broken into two parts 60 men plus 40 men, which produces the ratio 3/2. What we basically have is two mathematical systems in play.
This doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Quote:Now according to the ancient astronomers, the zodiac is made up of 12 signs each of 30 degrees, therefore, giving a zodiac circle of 360 degrees. My research shows a cohort of 480 men simply represents 480 degrees and when divided by 30 degrees per zodiac sign = 16 zodiac signs. This means 480 degrees represents one and a third zodiac cycles (4 parts Earth =360 degrees, one part diameter = 120 degrees). When the 480 man cohort is introduced is given by Virgil (Eclogue 4: The Golden Age) as occurring during the consulship of Pollio in 40 BC. My research positions 480 degrees as relating to the position of Saturn, which is exactly what Virgil claims, the return of Saturn during the reign of Augustus./quote]What is the source for this position of Saturn at that time? How does it work before this time? How does it work when Saturn moves in the future?

Quote: During this time, Virgil makes mention of Lucina which is the goddess of birth. I’ve learnt that when Lucina is mentioned in the primary sources it is symbolic of a reform being undertaken, and Virgil is right on the money.
When else is it mentioned?

Quote: Other interesting aspects of the zodiac is each 30 degree sector is subdivided into 10 degree sectors called decani, and each decanus is considered master of his own 10 degree sector. Each 10 degree sector was in turn subdivided into smaller sectors ruled by subdecani. A system of smaller subdivisions covering fractions of a degree was called myriogenesis, which can number up to 216,000.
And what does any of this mean?

Quote:How is this so? Can you elaborate? The Roman system is not based on observation on a weekly or monthly basis; it is permanently modelled on the cosmos system. Although the ancients calculate the upper heavens as moving, it is a theoretical system, and does not correspond to the observation of the planets or fixed stars from Earth. The mathematical system informs the Romans which part of the upper heavens rules them and for how long, similar in concept to Cassius Dio’s description of the gods governing the day. After a number of solar years that correspond with the circumference and diameter of the Earth, coupled divisible by the 60 parts of the Meridian circle, the Romans know which god now rules over them, and because the maths related to a new god greater in degrees than the last one, they increase the tribes in accordance. In this manner, a Roman priest knows what the size of the tribes will be centuries in advance. The system is not concerned with the lunar calendar, with differing days for each month, but the system is aligned with the solar calendar. However, regardless of whether they get the solar year wrong and allow 390 days, 255 days, or 365 days a year, it is the number of years the Roman believe it to be that tells them what position within the universe they are at. What I am saying is I am not randomly picking out degrees in the cosmos system to make the system work, far from it, and it remains faithful to Geminos, Cleomedes, Hipparchos, Pliny and many many others.
Why is there not even a hint of this in the major texts such as Polybius, Livy, Appian, Tacitus, etc?

Quote:There’s a reference in the Suida, given in Greek, of which I don’t have the correct font, that the Athenians organised the tribes of Solon on the months, four seasons and year. Plato recommends mathematical astronomy for his ideal state. Plato even allocates numbers to the planets (1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9 and 27).
Organising tribes is a little different to organising armies. And the Athenians later were able to add more tribes to honour major powers and allies.
Quote:And how do you shrug off Boethius? In his De Institutione Arithmetica, Boethius, compares the arithmetical proportion to the state, which is ruled by a few (oligarchy) because “the greater ratio is with the smaller numbers.” Boethius writes that “a state of the very best is a musical proportion.” Boethius lists five classes of inequality; the first class is called “multiple;” the second class the superparticular ratio, consisting of either the “sesquialter” or the “sesquitertian” ratio. The third class contains two parts the “superbipartient” and the “supertripartient” ratio. The fourth class contains the “duple-sesquialter” or “duple-sesquitertian” ratio, the fifth class is termed the “multiple superpartient” and contains the “duple-superbipartient” and the “triple-superbipartient” ratios.

Coincidently, the Servian constitution has five classes, and Boethius’ reference to a state being ruled by a few because the greater ratio is with the smaller number, somehow coincidently relates to the explanation given by Dionysius and Livy that in the voting system on the century assembly, the greater ratio of Class I, being smaller in number dominate the others, being greater in number (but not in the voting ratio). Maybe this is again, just mathematical coincidence. How do we know? Has anyone explored the possibility?
Seems rather coincidental, especially given Boethius was writing a millenium later.

Quote:First, I did not say the orbit of Venus restricted the number of centuries to 60. I stated the five known planets visible to the naked eye multiplied by the 12 signs of the zodiac produce the number 60. This is common knowledge in astronomic circles. Also it is common knowledge the Romans, like the Babylonians, used the sexagesimal place value system, (based on five planets and the zodiac), not the decimal; that is the numbers are based on sixes, not tens.
Didn't they only use this for astronomy not everyday calculations?
Quote: The figure of 60 is ten parts of 6, not six parts of ten. The modern system of counting hours, minutes and seconds is derived from it. Everything is broken into 60 parts, so one part is one sixtieth, and five parts, five sixtieth. Polybius’ legion of 4200 men is made up of 70 parts (70 sixtieths), and Livy’s 5400 man legion at Magnesia is made up of 90 parts. If you go up the next level, to one part being 600 men, Polybius’ legion is 7 parts and Livy’s legion, 9 parts.
Why? How do you explain Polybius' legion of 5,000 in "especial danger"?
Quote:Ancient astronomers like Geminos, Eratosthenes, Pliny and others give the circumference of the Earth at 252,000 stades.
Eratosthenes actually measured it to be 250,000.
Quote:Therefore, as Geminos is using the sexagesimal system, he writes the Earth contains 60 parts each of 4200 stades. The Romans allocate 600 stades to a degree, so 4200 stades = 7 degrees, and Livy’s legion of 5400 men equates to 9 degrees, and 6000 stades to 10 degrees. The Earth (252,000 stades = 420 degrees), so Polybius legion of 7 degrees represents one sixtieth (420 divided by 7 degrees). This is the system behind the legion and it is driven by their cosmos system.
Again, I don't understand. Also, doesn't Ptolemy say 500 stades to a degree? I've also seen a number of other amounts. In fact, per an article by S. Pothecary in Phoenix, "The length of the stade, the longest unit of Greek linear measurement, is one of the vexed issues of classical metrology, with stades of various lengths being attributed to geographical writers such as Eratosthenes, Polybios, Artemidoros, Poseidonios and Strabo respectively."
Quote:But have modern writers’ explored ancient mathematics, which is intertwined with geometry and astronomy? To answer this question, simply look up the bibliographies of every book you have on the Roman legion. If the author hasn’t, then this is akin to buying a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle, and throwing out two thirds of the pieces. This methodology will always result in never seeing the complete picture, therefore no consensus of opinion, and this has been going on for hundreds of years.
I've still not seen anything that suggests a tight link between the army and cosmology.
Quote:Question: if the Roman system does not reflect their cosmos system, then why do the Romans then assigned gods to hours of the day as described by Cassius Dio (History of Rome, XXXVII, 19.1-3):
This appears to be a non sequitur question. :?:

There's a lot of various maths and astronomy, which unsurprisingly tie up, but not a lot to suggest from what you've posted that it's the foundation of the Roman army. I look forward to reading the full book if it is ever published.
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Quote:
Quote:Matthew wrote:
You can tie troop numbers or unit sizes to all sorts of other things, but it does NOT mean that those troop numbers were fixed BECAUSE of those other things UNLESS an ancient author tells us so.
I refer to Geminos’ Introduction to the Phenomena. The whole book is explosive, especially the section “Concerning the Zones on Earth,” Chapter XV 1-4, followed by Chapter XVI 6-8, Dimensions of the Terrestrial Zones.” Following this is Chapter XVI 10-12, “Division of the Celestial Sphere.” The whole Roman tribal system is based on the information in these chapters given by Geminos. However, if the reader has no grasp of ancient mathematical methodology and astronomy, then the information remains meaningless.
That's not an answer. If Geminos does not say that tribal or army organization is based on his zones or spheres, then you do not have a causal link.
Quote:Every time the zodiac covered this distance, the tribes increase, but it takes centuries to happen.
Frankly, it's been a while since I did any study of the growth of the political system, but I seem to recall all manner of social upheaval prior to alteration of the tribal numbers or sizes. Thousands of people clamoring for rights, politicians crying their cause and being assassinated for it, riots, wars, etc. If it was a simple matter of "Well, the cycle's come around, time to increase the tribes!", you'd think that would have come up in the debates, and everyone would have said, "Oh, yeah, better do that"...
Quote:...Ptolemy’s 120/90 ratio is found in the two systems relating to the Earth being divided into three parts of 120 degrees, and the second system of dividing the Earth into four parts of 90 degrees. A century of 100 men is broken into two parts 60 men plus 40 men, which produces the ratio 3/2. What we basically have is two mathematical systems in play.
Sorry, this just sounds like you can get any numbers you need, and then you again *assume* a causal link rather than a simple correlation.
Quote:
Quote:Matthew wrote:
Organizing a military unit in strict accordance with astronomical observation seems like an invitation to disaster!
How is this so? Can you elaborate?
I mean that a military force must ultimately be based on its mission. Letting priests tell generals how many men they can have, or how to organize them, is a good way to get defeated. Sure, it's possible that back in the 8th century BC when Romulus was first lining his guys up, and was thinking that each little group should be somewhere between 50 and 100, some priest told him that 60 was a number which would please the gods. "Oh, yeah? Huh, okay, 60 it is. (Thinking: Don't want any grief from *that* whiner, plus I can blame it on him if we lose, ha!)"
Quote:The Roman system is not based on observation on a weekly or monthly basis; it is permanently modelled on the cosmos system. Although the ancients calculate the upper heavens as moving, it is a theoretical system, and does not correspond to the observation of the planets or fixed stars from Earth. The mathematical system informs the Romans which part of the upper heavens rules them and for how long
In other words, it COULD be that all of their cosmology was based on their numbering system, right?? "Gosh, we got these 11 zodiac symbols, but if we have 12 or 16 it'll make better round numbers!"
Quote:And how do you shrug off Boethius?
Gosh, you got me there, I was hoping you wouldn't mention him and shoot down my whole argument! Actually, I was more thinking, "Who's Boethius?" Call me a Philistine...
Quote:In his De Institutione Arithmetica, Boethius, compares the arithmetical proportion to the state, which is ruled by a few (oligarchy) because “the greater ratio is with the smaller numbers.” Boethius writes that “a state of the very best is a musical proportion.” Boethius lists five classes of inequality; the first class is called “multiple;” the second class the superparticular ratio, consisting of either the “sesquialter” or the “sesquitertian” ratio. The third class contains two parts the “superbipartient” and the “supertripartient” ratio. The fourth class contains the “duple-sesquialter” or “duple-sesquitertian” ratio, the fifth class is termed the “multiple superpartient” and contains the “duple-superbipartient” and the “triple-superbipartient” ratios.
So a mathematical philosopher looks at his philosophical idea of the math of a socio-political system. So what? That goes on all the time! That's not proof that any system was consciously organized in a particular way for that reason!
Quote:
Quote:Matthew wrote:
So, IS there an ancient source that says something to the effect of, "Oh, no, we CAN'T have more than 60 centuries in a legion, because of the orbit of Venus!" Even a hint of such thinking? If not, you're way out on a limb.
First, I did not say the orbit of Venus restricted the number of centuries to 60. I stated the five known planets visible to the naked eye multiplied by the 12 signs of the zodiac produce the number 60.
Yeah, which is why I said "something to the effect of". Sheesh...
Quote:This is common knowledge in astronomic circles. Also it is common knowledge the Romans, like the Babylonians, used the sexagesimal place value system, (based on five planets and the zodiac), not the decimal; that is the numbers are based on sixes, not tens.
I, II, III, IV (or IIII), V, VI, VII, VIII, IX/VIIII, X, XV, XX, XXV, XXX, XL/XXXX, L, LX, XC, C, CD, D... I'm not a math guy, but it's looking like 5s and 10s to me. I don't have any problem with people doing things in 6s or 12s or 4s or anything else, mind you! Like you say, 12 hours in a day, 60 minutes in an hour, a dozen eggs, 16 ounces in a pound, 14 pounds in a stone (perfectly logical!), etc. But it just looks like you have so many significant numbers and fractions, that you can add or multiply them in some way to get ANY number you need.
Quote:But have modern writers’ explored ancient mathematics, which is intertwined with geometry and astronomy? To answer this question, simply look up the bibliographies of every book you have on the Roman legion. If the author hasn’t, then this is akin to buying a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle, and throwing out two thirds of the pieces. This methodology will always result in never seeing the complete picture, therefore no consensus of opinion, and this has been going on for hundreds of years.
Quote:Question: if the Roman system does not reflect their cosmos system, then why do the Romans then assigned gods to hours of the day as described by Cassius Dio (History of Rome, XXXVII, 19.1-3):
Wait, what? Did I ever try to say that gods and planets are not part of a cosmological system?? What the heck does that have to do with the number of men in a cohort??
Quote:Interestingly, the ancients call the tetrad, the shield bearer of the hebdomad.
So you've proved their cosmology is based on their military system.
Quote:The ancient cosmos is a sexagesimal place value system; the Roman legion is a sexagesimal place value system. There’s your first link.
That's not a link, that's a simple correlation. If they counted EVERYthing in sixes, that does not mean cosmology causes military organization.
Quote:The Romans have to base their system on something, so why not the cosmos.
In other words, you're making a huge assumption, without any Roman writer actually backing it up.
Quote:The cosmos represent divinity and as Aristotle states the system is perfect without disorder. Geminos writes “the motion of the stars is simple, uniform and orderly.” The Romans organised their military camps so every man knew his place, thereby eliminating disorder. Are we to accept the Romans only did this in their military camps and the rest of their systems, be it social or military, allowed for degrees of disorder?
Huh? They were a people who appreciated order and discipline, and they knew that disorganized armies got slaughtered. They applied that love of order to their philosophical view of the cosmos. AND they knew that armies without order and discipline were more easily defeated! But other cultures have been different: Look at US and western culture in the 1960s and 1970s, for instance! "Do your own thing" was the word of the day, chaos theory, counter-culture, protest and anti-establishmentism--AND astronomers gleefully pointed out that the earth was not a perfect sphere but slightly pear-shaped and wobbled on its axis, that the sun fluctuated in strength, that the cosmos in general was a mess. Obviously you can tie American defeat in Vietnam into this, but basing a theory on US army company strength on a pear-shaped Earth just isn't gonna go far...

Well, I probably should have just taken my lovely wife's advice and just ignored you, but your nearly random dropping of quotes from my post through your response seemed to need another answer...

Matthew
Matthew Amt (Quintus)
Legio XX, USA
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.larp.com/legioxx/">http://www.larp.com/legioxx/
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Quote:Firstly I am not asking anyone to believe anything.
Isn't that the whole point of a new theory? You try to convince others. That's how you tell whether it might actually fly, or whether you've maybe been living too close to the wood to see the trees.
posted by Duncan B Campbell
https://ninth-legion.blogspot.com/
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Quote:
antiochus:o99ywlwo Wrote:Firstly I am not asking anyone to believe anything.
Isn't that the whole point of a new theory? You try to convince others. That's how you tell whether it might actually fly, or whether you've maybe been living too close to the wood to see the trees.

...I think you'll find if you put that quote in context, it is quite clear that Steven is saying that he does not expect anyone to take what he says on trust, but that he believes he has sufficient evidence to make his hypothesis likely......and that, as he says more than once, that would require his entire thesis/book...
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
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Hello Nick, how’s the thesis coming along?

Quote:Nick wrote:
Why is there not even a hint of this in the major texts such as Polybius, Livy, Appian, Tacitus, etc?

You need to know what you are looking for in order to find it.

In 44 BC, during the funeral games of Julius Caesar a comet was visible for seven days in the northern part of the sky. The common people believed that this star signified the soul of Caesar received among the spirits of the immortal gods. According to Servius, (Vergil Eclogues 9 46) a haruspex by the name of Vulcatius went before the popular assembly proclaiming the new comet indicated the end of the ninth saeculum, and the beginning of the tenth saeculum. Censorinus cites a saeculum is an age or cycle. To many the above means nothing. However, the Roman saeculum is the cosmic calendar, and it ties in with Florus’ remark of Rome’s period of infancy, youth and manhood.

Quote:Nick wrote:
Organising tribes is a little different to organising armies.

The three tribes of Romulus is also the army, being one and the same. Livy cites the century assembly was designed for both war and peace.

Quote:Nick wrote:
And the Athenians later were able to add more tribes to honour major powers and allies.

The Romans also added more tribes to accommodate more citizens. So what are they doing differently from the Athenians? If the Athenians based their tribes on the four seasons, months and year, then I am inclined to accept it until someone can prove otherwise.

Quote:Nick wrote:
Seems rather coincidental, especially given Boethius was writing a millenium later.

But who is Boethius’ work deprived from? For one, he mentions many of the ancient mathematicians dating back to 5th century BC. To determine if Boethius is just mathematical coincidence first requires taking a scientific approach…that is to test it first, then make a judgement. This is my methodology, of which I have chosen in preference to dogma. We no longer burn heretics so there is nothing to fear by taking the scientific approach. The ancient applied numbers to mostly everything. Aristotle applies mathematical values to each of the four seasons. Some gods are associated with the triangle, others the square. These geometric shapes are numbers. You find this in so many of the primary sources dealing with astronomy and mathematics that you quickly gain an understanding the cosmos system of the ancients is about numbers. All you have to do to confirm this is read the primary sources. Any modern day historian specialising in ancient astronomy will tell you the same thing. Recently I came upon an article on ancient mathematics, and in it the author was displaying the standard ancient mathematical ratios and how the intervals of the ratios work. The numbers he produced like 435, 565 etc, if you multiply by 100, you have the number of men available in the tribes as the tribes progress. Now if this academic was interested in Roman military history, my bet is I wouldn’t be writing this book.

Seriously, if a person knows nothing about ancient mathematics, then how can they dismiss the possibility the Romans are not basing their social systems on their interpretation of the cosmos? Because such a theory conflicts with a person’s sensibilities is not proof such a thing did not occur. Also it is a fact that no one has bothered to explore whether a link exists between ancient mathematics and the Roman military systems, so until that exploration is undertaken, the possibility does exist.

Quote:Nick wrote:
Eratosthenes actually measured it to be 250,000.

Censorinus, Cleomedes and Pliny (and I think Strabo) cite Eratosthenes calculated the circumference at 252,000 stades. It is generally accepted, Eratosthenes himself corrected 250,000 to 252,000 stades in order to get a figure divisible by 60 and, give a round number of 700 stades for one degree.

Quote:Nick wrote:
Also, doesn't Ptolemy say 500 stades to a degree? I've also seen a number of other amounts.


Figures varying 500 to 750 stades to the degree are given by various sources.

Quote:Nick wrote:
In fact, per an article by S. Pothecary in Phoenix, "The length of the stade, the longest unit of Greek linear measurement, is one of the vexed issues of classical metrology, with stades of various lengths being attributed to geographical writers such as Eratosthenes, Polybios, Artemidoros, Poseidonios and Strabo respectively."

I have found the Roman cosmos system does not involve knowing the length of the stade (625 feet, 580 feet etc). What is relevant is its value as a single degree (600, 700, 840 stades etc), and the time frame of a single degree.

Quote:Nick wrote:
I look forward to reading the full book if it is ever published.

Why would it not be published? What has your crystal ball revealed that I should know?
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Hi Steven,

Thanks for the responses.

The thesis is going slowly but surely. Smile

I only say if it is ever published because, as you know, I've been waiting for your publications for a long time given we've spoken about them for ages. I look forward to reading the detailed arguments!

cheers!
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This topic is still going!

I have only re-read some of the later posts and have just returned from a conference on Prehistoric potentials for sacred geometry, philosophical implications etc.

When I was reading this, I was reminded of Robert Bauvals equations used when he wrote the Orion Mystery. Although some of his calculations were flawed in the book (he was arguing that the Giza Plateau in Egypt mirrors a scale model of the earth in its cosmos) - he too was attempting to crack 'codes' within esoteric texts relating to the harmonious nature of the universe of the Old Kingdoms of Egypt.

Archaeologists understand that a cosmology will evidently contain ratios and numbers that regulate the status quo in a non-Industrialised (or post medieval) society. But there are too many variables in the Ancient world which would render some of the maths you suggest, useless. War is a big factor - maybe the general numbering systems in use by the Roman army came through a divine tradition - but the later Empire saw massive changes in the structure of legions. How does a cosmology account for the introduction of a new 'official' religion where the ideas of golden section geometry and sacred equations were seen in a different light?

No matter how much the ancient scholars used the celestial and sub-lunary spheres to account for conventions in scientific knowledge (or the idea of events being time reversible), Human nature dictates that uncertainty and indeterminacy is the normal way of things - this was nothing new during the time of Aristotolian philosophy. (See Prigogine 1997, Koerner 2008)

It seems like your work is based around ideas that physics adheres to fixed laws of nature - and therefore the standard deviations of variability are unaccounted for. Work in quantum physics was blowing that idea out of the water as early as the mid 1970's and the sciences are slowly coming to accept that cosmology is a contingent and self organising system - much like the rest of human agency
Claire Marshall

General Layabout

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.plateau-imprints.co.uk">www.plateau-imprints.co.uk
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