Macedonian Silver Shields

[Paullus Scipio]

Sean said:-

There is also a theory that the Silver Shields and Bronze Shields were 8,000 man halves of Alexander's phalanx. I really wish more 3rd century soruces had survived so we could resolve these debates!

...I'm afraid that theory can only have arisen from flawed reading of the sources, which are really quite clear. The Hypaspists gain the nickname 'argyraspides' from the decorated replacement gear Alexander hands out before India ( see other threads).Gabiene is an indecisive battle, but Antigonus has the presence of mind to send a force to capture the 'silvershields' camp, which contains their wives families and the treasure of 15 years or so of looting their way across Asia. They take about 5 minutes to decide to switch sides and hand over Eumenes for execution in exchange for their 'stuff' back. Antigonus despises them for their treachery and hates them for their 'kingmaking' propensities. Their general Antigenes is executed by being put in a pit and burned alive.He then has them sent far,far away where they are given all the dangerous jobs so they dwindle rapidly ( or retire ?)Unsurprisingly, there are no more 'Argyraspides' in the Macedonian army, only the two wings of the phalanx named 'Chalkaspides' (bronze-shields) and Leukaspides ( white-shields).The later Seleucid army does call part of its phalanx 'Argyraspides', however and these are sarissa/pelte armed.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Sean said:-

There is also a theory that the Silver Shields and Bronze Shields were 8,000 man halves of Alexander's phalanx. I really wish more 3rd century soruces had survived so we could resolve these debates!

...I'm afraid that theory can only have arisen from flawed reading of the sources, which are really quite clear. The Hypaspists gain the nickname 'argyraspides' from the decorated replacement gear Alexander hands out before India ( see other threads).Gabiene is an indecisive battle, but Antigonus has the presence of mind to send a force to capture the 'silvershields' camp, which contains their wives families and the treasure of 15 years or so of looting their way across Asia. They take about 5 minutes to decide to switch sides and hand over Eumenes for execution in exchange for their 'stuff' back. Antigonus despises them for their treachery and hates them for their 'kingmaking' propensities. Their general Antigenes is executed by being put in a pit and burned alive.He then has them sent far,far away where they are given all the dangerous jobs so they dwindle rapidly ( or retire ?)Unsurprisingly, there are no more 'Argyraspides' in the Macedonian army, only the two wings of the phalanx named 'Chalkaspides' (bronze-shields) and Leukaspides ( white-shields).The later Seleucid army does call part of its phalanx 'Argyraspides', however and these are sarissa/pelte armed.

I think the original theory for the 16.000 being separated in two was actually between "Leukaspides" and "Chalkaspides",and this since -as Paullus stated out- the ancient sources are quite clear about "argyraspides". Actually the theory may be Connolly's originally or he quotes another historian in his book. He also says the "silver" shields might well have been tinned bronze,like later roman equipment.
I just remind that at least in modern greek,the word silver can refer to any grey colour metal.If you ask somebody what colour is this (iron) spoon,the reply will be 90% "silver". Is it the same with other languages?
Now,I'm not saying this is a clue that the shields had to be tinned and not real silver,but it may add to the discussion.
Khairete
Giannis

[Paralus]

Going to have to disagree with this. Whilst individually they may well have been able to do this, there is no evidence whatsoever that the original Hypaspists fought with anything other than Aspis and Dory - the so-called Alexander sarcophogus for example portrays troops who can only be Hypaspists fighting with this gear.

Why? The Hoplite was a social class above the hoi-polloi. A sarissa is hardly a practical weapon on guard duty indoors either.

Aren't you overlooking that 'phalanx' just means a line of close-order heavy-armed/armoured infantry? It most certainly doesn't imply sarissa armed troops unless qualified e.g. 'phalanx armed in the Macedonian fashion'. Nowhere is this said of the Hypaspists.

There is no evidence that the Hypaspists were 'double- armed' with Dory and Aspis AND sarissa and pelte. There is good evidence that the Taxeis of the Pezhetaroi reverted from sarissa to the traditional pair of longche, other than when in big 'set-piece' battles

That's a hell of a lot to deal with whilst doing spreadsheets at the office. Just quickly:

There is precious little direct evidence either way. MM Markle argues strongly in favour of the hoplite theory based on his work on the Macedonian aspis in artwork (mostly). Many of these representations are "ceremonial" (as he admits) and the literary evidence comes down to how Alexander uses his troops and the terms that, generally, Arrian applies to them. The "Alexander sarcophagus", if representing reality, argues in your favour. At bottom though it is art (hence the "heroic nudes") and it will have been rather unwieldy depicting sarissa armed troops on same. In fact, depictions of sarissa armed troops are notable by their scarcity.

The notion of a “hoplite classâ€

[Paullus Scipio]

Paralus/ Michael wrote:-
[quote]That's a hell of a lot to deal with whilst doing spreadsheets at the office. Just quickly: My post too was only a brief foray on a question that is difficult !
There is precious little direct evidence either way. ...agreed, as is so often the case when discussing things ancient....rarely are we going to reach the criminal standard of "proof beyond reasonable doubt", but we are often going to have to settle, for want of conclusive evidence, on the lower civil burden of proof " on balance of probablity".. you will gather that I am a lawyer by profession - please don't hold that against me! :wink: MM Markle argues strongly in favour of the hoplite theory based on his work on the Macedonian aspis in artwork (mostly). Many of these representations are "ceremonial" (as he admits)....I would certainly not necessarily accept this, and Markle is wrong about quite a few things... and the literary evidence comes down to how Alexander uses his troops and the terms that, generally, Arrian applies to them. The "Alexander sarcophagus", if representing reality, argues in your favour. ...and so, I think, does the existence in the so-called Philip tomb of more than one 'Aspis and Dory', implying that when the king fought on foot, it was as a Hoplite among the Hypaspists.....At bottom though it is art (hence the "heroic nudes") and it will have been rather unwieldy depicting sarissa armed troops on same. In fact, depictions of sarissa armed troops are notable by their scarcity.

The notion of a “hoplite classâ€

[Paralus]

Paullus Scipio\\n[quote]
Eumenes has his “hypaspistsâ€

[Paullus Scipio]

Paralus wrote:-

The point rather was the positioning within the line. They are placed next to the sarissa armed natives, inside of the successor hypaspists.

....positioning proves nothing...in both armies, dory/aspis armed men stood beside men armed 'macedonian style' in the phalanx, so there is no reason to assume 'sarissa' for the Eumenid Argyraspides and Hypaspists...

Macedonian troops were too precious a commodity and commanders could not be certain that they would fight each other ..and indeed the native Macedonian troops at Parataikene were at opposite ends of the phalanx... (indeed Diodorus relates the severe unrest amongst Antigonus' Macedonians being forced to "fight their kinsmen"). ...exactly ! At Gabiene the native Macedonians face each other as Eumenes reverses his earlier formations and makes his left flank the 'strong' one - thus the native Macedonians face each other.Antigenes 'Psy-ops' works and the young Macedonians of Antigonas army protest as you say. No such squeamishness from the Argyraspides... Given that (from memory) Antigonus had some 7-8,000 Macedonian infantry (less Paraetecene losses) and a similar number of Asians "armed in the Macedonian fashion", it is a fair bet that the Argyraspids will have been facing successor infantry "armed and trained in the Macedonian fashion" as one might expect these to be on Antigonus' end of his line if not his Macedonians. ..not so, see above.. The superiority of sarissa armed foot over the hoplite had now been a fact for a generation or so. ....oo..ooh, a very debateable proposition. I could give more than one occasion when conventional Hoplites had the better of a Macedonian phalanx, but since most Greek armies ultimately converted to 'Macedonian style' phalanxes, I'll concede the point. But it did not become apparent for the next hundred years....

Just so we don't get into "the ten pound argument" ( for non-Monty Python fans, the yes-it-is-no-it-isn't style), of the three sources of information, the literary sources tell us nothing definitive and the same process of deductive reasoning can be applied either way, the iconography - a little sculpture and tomb paintings- have Aspis armed troops who can only be Hypaspists and the archaeology ( at least two contemporary tombs) comes up with Aspides and dory-heads also. That makes two-out-of three points in favour of Aspides/Dory armament, and zero-out-of-three for Sarissa/Pelte....."on balance of probability therefore..." :wink: :wink: D

[Paralus]

The danger of opening myself to "hit on the head lessons" notwithstanding...

Plut. Eum. 14.2-5

But it was most particularly when Eumenes was sick that the Macedonians let it be seen how in their judgment, while others could feast them handsomely and make entertainments, he alone knew how to fight and lead an army. For Peucestes, having made a splendid entertainment in Persia, and given each of the soldiers a sheep to sacrifice with, made himself sure of being commander-in-chief. Some few days after the army was to march, and Eumenes having been dangerously ill was carried in a litter apart from the body of the army, that any rest he got might not be disturbed. But when they were a little advanced, unexpectedly they had a view of the enemy, who had passed the hills that lay between them, and was marching down into the plain. At the sight of the golden armour glittering in the sun as they marched down in their order, the elephants with their castles on their backs, and the men in their purple, as their manner was when they were going to give battle, the front stopped their march, and called out for Eumenes, for they would not advance a step but under his conduct; and fixing their arms in the ground gave the word among themselves to stand, requiring their officers also not to stir or engage or hazard themselves without Eumenes. News of this being brought to Eumenes, he hastened those that carried his litter, and drawing back the curtains on both sides, joyfully put forth his right hand. As soon as the soldiers saw him they saluted him in their Macedonian dialect, and took up their shields, and striking them with their pikes, gave a great shout; inviting the enemy to come on, for now they had a leader.

Mind you, as with many things, it may all be in the translation. The Argyraspids are the only attested Macedonian infantry in Eumenes' army. At Gabiene Antigonus essentially repeated his Paraetecene line. He was some 6,000 infantry short of his numbers there. If the Argyraspids engaged the Macedonian sarissa armed infantry with an eight foot dory, they will have been at a distinct disadvantage. That seems not the case with Diodorus stating that they "in close order, fell heavily upon" the Antigonid phalanx. Armed as a hoplite, the first thing they will have fallen heavily upon was a murderous leaf shaped blade some fifty centimetres long. Ouch!

Were it the Diadoch Cup on the Isfahan track, I'd be looking for a rails bookie betting on a sarissa-armed Silver Shields.

[hoplite14gr]

Spear-pike engagement is actually a close order drill exersize.
You can produce that type of troops in 2 weeks intensive training aided by
the stichiarch's stick! A couple of months they probably have team/unit spirit too.
If you are a monarch who can afford to keep them under arms for more than a campaigning season you can train them to multiple dexterities/skills.
Hellenistic "filthy rich" rulers could afford to do the above.

Kind regards

[MeinPanzer]

Makedonian peltai were circular, and made of wood and were rimless ( to allow two handed grip of the sarissa)

Not all peltai were rimless; many just had smaller rims than most hopla but had rims nonetheless.

Yes like this example from King Pharnakes I who ruled Pontis from 185 BCE to 160 BCE

K. Liampi surveys all the existing examples of Macedonian shields in "Der makedonische Schild."

These include:

A complete miniature bronze coating of a Macedonian shield (diameter 33.8 cm) found in Olympia and dated (rather dubiously, I think) to the end of the 5th or the beginning of the 4th C. BC.

A fragment of a bronze coating from Dodona, reconstructed diameter of 66 cm, dating to the 3rd C. BC.

The fragments of a bronze shield coating already mentioned from Begora/Florina, reconstructed diameter of 73.6 cm, dated to the end of the 4th or beginning of the 3rd C. BC.

Apparently a coating found in Pergamon that Connolly illustrates, but I have never found anything on this outside of his book (not even, for instance, in Liampi's very comprehensive text mentioned above).

In addition to this, two molds for making shield coverings of this sort have been found in Memphis, diameter of 70 cm, dated to the first half of the 3rd C. BC.

[Paralus]

Another observation. Polyaenus (4.2.7) has this to say about Philip leading his army at Chaeronea:

[quote]At Chaeronea Philip, being in formation facing the Athenians, gave way and retired. The Athenian commander, Stratocles, shouted out “we must not stop pressing the enemy hard until we drive them into Macedoniaâ€

[MeinPanzer]

Paralus\\n[quote]Another observation. Polyaenus (4.2.7) has this to say about Philip leading his army at Chaeronea:

[quote]At Chaeronea Philip, being in formation facing the Athenians, gave way and retired. The Athenian commander, Stratocles, shouted out “we must not stop pressing the enemy hard until we drive them into Macedoniaâ€

[hoplite14gr]

Need to see the original text but contracted would be "syspeiromenos" and inside the weapons "en meso ton oplon"

Not sure of the exact meaning of the english term "contracted" here though.

Kind regards

[PMBardunias]

inside the weapons "en meso ton oplon"

I hope he is more specific for weapon than "Hoplon", which might as well read "insert your favorite spear length or shield type".

[hoplite14gr]

Oplo in Greek means weapon and metaforicaly tool.
"Argolicon hoplon" means Argive weapon.

Shield is Aspis. So "en meso ton oplon" would be "inside weapons" or "amongst weapons"

The term hoplon for shield is erroneous.

Kind regards

[Paralus]

What's the original Greek for "contracted" and "inside the weapons"?

Indeed.

It is NGL Hammond's translation (Philip of Macedon) and he mentions only eneklinen (incline) which he relates as "retire". "Refuse" may be another word.

If the Greek is not specifically identifying a weapon - and I suspect that it does not, hence 'weapons' - then, again, it is my argument that the most likely weapon offering this protection is a fifteen ot eighteen foot pike. Sarissa heads - in poor preservation - have been excavated at Chaeronea.

There is another passage from Diodorus that provides an interesting insight (19.43.4-6):

Antigonus divided his cavalry into two bodies with one of which he himself lay in wait for Eumenes, watching for the first move; but the other he gave to Pithon and ordered him to attack the Silver Shields now that they had been cut off from their cavalry support. When Pithon promtly carried out his orders, the Macedonians promtly formed themselves into a sqaure and withdrew safely...

That the cavalry would, on this account (Hieronymus), would eveidently refuse to approach the sqaure is rather suggestive. It implies strongly that these men were protected by something more than the seven to eight foot dory. Antigonus' cavalry, at this stage, had complete control and even a literal "half" would see the old buggers seriously outnumbered.

It is redolent of another retreat from another Eumenes and his Roman allies some 127 years later. Unfortunately for Antiochus' phalanx, they retired with their elephants within the sqaure.

On an earlier point, royal hypaspists carrying the sarissa on guard, Arrian 4.8.8-9 comes to mind. "Other" sources say he grabbed a "pike" from a guard. The guard is not likely to have been one of the somatophylakes but rather a royal hypaspist. There is another but I'm buggered if I can pull from my memory.

Funnily enough, Diodorus - who regularly mixes his technical terms - in book sixteen refers to the hypaspist guards of philip as "doryphoroi" - just to confuse matters.