Segmentata (or lack of) in the East

[arklore70]

There was a post about 16-20 months ago I want to say which did show to some extent the effectiveness of the hamata.

I think there was also one on the segmentata as well.

Is there any way we can get the links to those previous discussions on the other forums as well? I know I would be interested in reading them.

IMHO here, I think both the segmentata and the hamtata each had their advantages and disadvantages, but clearly both were effective means of protection that were in use for quite a period of time, but I do not think one was clearly superior to the other. If one type really was rotten or inferior,..it would not have been in use for long. Soldiers don't want to haul or carry anything they don't need or have too unless it has or serves some purpose/need.

Mission, tactics, enemy opposition also might have played a factor in one type being more preferred over the other. The right equipment so t say, for the right job. Supply and availability might have also been a factor. Personal preference and what was fashionable might also have played a role.

By re enacting we have begun to scratch the surface on what some of these advantages and disadvantages might be.

Unfortunately we may never be able to completely replicate all the battlefield stresses unless serious funding becomes available to not only include tests in mass but also having battle stress test labs made available.

Maybe some day we might find that odd ball "squaddie" that wrote home to "Mom" to complain about his armor or praise it. or to ask for some coin to purchase the newest best piece of gear.

Until then...there is plenty of room for opinion and not much in the way of really solving this mystery.

Cheers!!

Mike

[Goffredo]

Hi guys
I certainly don't want to side-track this thread onto the issue of effectiveness against arrows for its own sake. It is a way to start evaluating the anti-arrow-eastern-birth segmentata theory. Is the theory at least founded in the premise? Then the segmentata had to be attractive for many other reasons as on the rhine and danube the percieved threats were not arrows.

[Ironhand]

I see. Sorry, never mind. I'm not a moderator obviously, but I've seen too many questions like that really derail without getting anywhere. That is a pretty involved question, but might be worthwhile.

[Crispvs]

For eastern origins of Segmentata, the segmental armours on the Pergamum frieze and the the segmental armour in the spolia fieze on the base of Trajan's column are often cited as evidence.

Crispvs

[Marcus Mummius]

A hamata was certainly a lot more expensive than the segmentata. I agree with the theories that say that the adoption of the segmentata was also for a large part due to economic reasons.

vale,

[Casmin]

During the medieval era soldiers managed to wear heavy armor in the Middle East. If segmentatae were in fact rarer, there must be another reason.

[Paullus Scipio]

.....the 'segmental' armour from the spolia on Trajan's column can hardly br cited as evidence for the origins of Roman segmentata, which was in use aprox 100 years earlier.
This armour is clearly not metal ( the shape around the shoulders and the fact that each 'layer' is buckled) and is most likely the Leather armour of the Sarmatians described by Tacitus.

[Crispvs]

Well, I was citing it as armour from an 'eastern' context, rather than pointing to a particular time period. However, I don't see any reason to think that a useful type of equipment would necessarily have a short lifespan. For a discussion of these items I would recommend Mike Bishop's book on Lorica Segmentata (Lorica Segmentata Volume 1).
Incidentally, I don't think that the buckled method of fastening prevents an interpretation of it as iron (after all, buckles are hardly absent from Corbridge type segmentata and Bishop has proposed them as a fastening method for Kalkriese type segmentata) and I don't know that the shape of the shoulders can necessarily be trusted.

http://www.classics.ox.ac.uk/resources/ ... lbase2.jpg

Compare the segmental cuirass on the left with the scale cuirass in the middle, which seems to have been given a musculature which would not be present on a real scale cuirass. This can be seen again more clearly on this example:

http://www.classics.ox.ac.uk/resources/ ... lbase1.jpg

To me this indicates that an element of artistic licence is present in the frieze which makes interpreting these items as one material or another difficult if not impossible. As Mike Bishop is fond of saying, Ockham's razor can be a useful tool here.

Crispvs