Segmentata (or lack of) in the East

[Carus Andiae]

Something which seems to turn up from time to time in books on the Roman army is the theory that the Eastern legions didn't have/use lorica segmentata. What's the reasoning behind this?

[Marcus Mummius]

One theory is that wearing a segmentata in areas with a lot of intense sunshine results in overheating sooner than wearing a hamata.

But then again, a squamata is very hot too and was worn a lot in the east...

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Low amount of finds?

[Tarbicus]

Seg parts were found in Syria IIRC, or was it Israel? Until someone comes up with facts about the climate and temperatures in the East during the 1st to 3rd Centuries, that clearly prove a legionary would collapse within sixty seconds of putting one on, I'm willing to figure they were as much in use in the East as elsewhere in the Empire. All this stuff about hamata and squamata being cooler, therefore the seg can't have been worn, is just pure speculation IMHO, and has no grounding in fact. I've worn a hamata and a seg, and you can give me the lightness of a seg any day, thanks.

These guys in Jordan seem to manage okay on a fairly regular basis:



http://www.theworldly.org/ArticlesPages ... ordan.html

[Caballo]

Jim, you were right - in Israel.

http://www.antiquities.org.il/article_I ... 312&id=520

"Gamla: Finds
An unusual concentration of Roman military equipment was found in L4019, which is a very narrow alley between the inner side of the twin towers in area M and the wall of a building. Here was found what appear to be discarded or lost pieces of the equipment of a Roman officer. The concentration includes a helmet visor and a silver plated cheek-guard, a gold plated scabbard chape and parts of lorica segmentata armor, this last a rare find in the eastern provinces. It would not be stretching the imagination too far to see a trapped Roman officer during the failed first attack, who tried to escape from the city and lost or dropped parts of his equipment in his attempt to flee the city.
A dramatic illustration of the assault at the breach was a siege-hook found on the breach itself, used both for stabbing and hooking onto the wall for climbing.
At other points along the fighting zone, as well as elsewhere in the city, a small number of armor scales were found, as opposed to the hundreds found at Masada. Several other scabbard chapes, sheet bronze identification tags affixed to various pieces of equipment, possible pilum (the Roman spear) points, an ombo (the central bronze boss of a shield), military buttons, harness decorations and pendants were found. Since the Jews used essentially the same kinds. These objects could roll, thus causing more damage than a square block that would come to rest as soon as it hit the ground."

More were found at Masada and Zippori (Sepphoris) in Israel.

(And from the Bryn Mawr Classical Review, a bibliograhy-Gamla: brief notes in Arma vol. 6 (1994), 16, and vol. 7 (1995), 8. Sepphoris. G.D. Stiebel delivered a paper on Roman military equipment from destruction layers in Roman Palestine, at the Fourteenth International Roman Military Equipment Conference in Vienna, August 2003. The Masada material will be published as part of the Final Reports Series of the Masada Excavation Reports, The Yigael Yadin Excavations, 1963-1965 (Vol. VII). Note also, G.D. Stiebel 2003: 'The militaria from Herodium' in G.C. Bottini, L. Di Segni, & L.D. Chrupcala (eds.), One Land - Many Cultures. Archaeological Studies in Honour of S. Loffreda, Studium Biblicum Franciscanum Collectio Maior 41 (Jerusalem), 215-44.)

Cheers

Caballo

[Marcus Mummius]

Indeed, I don't believe the theory either. But it is one of those explanations that are often given without any real hard facts basing them.

I must say my new rivetted hamata (7kg) is much more comfortable AND lighter than my seg. And my seg is light compared to a lot of the re-eanctment seg's out there. I have thinner girdle plates, just like the originals from corbridge.

But if I add my padded subarmalis with the prteryges attached I think my hamata configuration is heavier than the seg.

Vale,

[Carus Andiae]

Thanks all. It always struck me as a rather strange claim and it seems there is no real grounds for it. Interesting.

[Guy Stiebel]

Global warming is a problem but lets not blame the weather....

We have in the east Roman east examples from the early Principate alone. The remains are restricted to the Corbridge type. No finds of lorica segmentata are known form 3rd century Dura-Europos.

The most substantial discovery was made at Gamala were a large number of fittings (tie-hoops, hinge buckles, hinged straps, washers, etc. ) and complete units were found. Part of this assemblage was briefly dealt related in an article published in the ROMEC XIV Acts: Carnuntum Jahrbuch 2005.

There are also several fittings from Masada (volume is literally in print): several tie-hoops, a lobate hinge and several D-shaped buckles.

Few more fittings were uncovered in the Judaean Desert and in Jerusalem.

The alleged Sepphoris piece is in fact a complete - though highly corroded lorica squmata suit.

hope this is of any help

Guy Stiebel

[Crispvs]

"The alleged Sepphoris piece is in fact a complete - though highly corroded lorica squmata suit."

Guy,

Do you have any pictures of this armour? A complete squamata could be incredibly informative, even in a corroded state.


Crispvs

[Ironhand]

One thing that is interesting is that even though the Segmentata is not really found much in the East, the concept of Armour of Bands or Banded Armour (of which they consider the segmentata) is fairly common. See link.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505/
click on Armour of Bands

[Guy Stiebel]

"
Do you have any pictures of this armour? A complete squamata could be incredibly informative, even in a corroded state.

Crispvs

It is very corroded, hence beside the shape of the scales, fastening method and weight of suit, not much can be deduced from it. It is awaiting publication hence my hands are tied regrading photos and such.

Guy

[Crispvs]

Guy,

If you could describe the fastening method that would in itself be of great interest.

Crispvs

[Goffredo]

Few years ago I read a theory that proposed that segmentata was a response against parthian arrows! Then it became popular because lighter and for other reasons (?). I already mentioned this on this forum some time back. Unfortunately I do not remember where I read this.
Any comments of comparative effectiveness of segmentata vs hamata against arrows?

[Sean Manning]

There is also the possibility that segmentata developed from or was inspired by eastern cavalry armour. But as so often, all we have are scraps of evidence and various plausible theories that might be roughly true. Very frustrating!

In general, my impression is that if a piece of gear was common anywhere in the Roman army in a period, you could find a few troops using it everywhere. The shared material culture among legionaries was pretty strong.

Edit: Slight rewording.

[Ironhand]

Careful Goffredo. Thats a pretty heated topic. I haven't seen that type of discussion that wasn't pretty biased and it always led to a lot of controversy. Its also hard to touch on it without bringing up the touchy armour vs. arrows subject in general. Without actually doing the tests to show evidence I personally wouldn't post on the subject. Its been done to death on Sword Forum Internatinal and MyArmoury.com.